Gibraltar is like Marmite.

[Ariadne]

Well just to add my twopence worth, love it or hate it?

I hate it! Been there twice and hated it both times for different reasons. First time it was full of the Bloody Navy on the piss (OK on well earned shore leave after a trip east to Libya showing Mr Gadaffi who was the boss). No room in the inns so to speak or anywhere else for that matter. Remember when we had a fighting Navy????

The second time, I just felt everybody was just out to make a fast buck anyway they felt. As for the locals, bunch of miserable buggers.

Give the place back to the Spanish, where it belongs!

 

[VO5]

Well just to add my twopence worth, love it or hate it?

I hate it! Been there twice and hated it both times for different reasons. First time it was full of the Bloody Navy on the piss (OK on well earned shore leave after a trip east to Libya showing Mr Gadaffi who was the boss). No room in the inns so to speak or anywhere else for that matter. Remember when we had a fighting Navy????

The second time, I just felt everybody was just out to make a fast buck anyway they felt. As for the locals, bunch of miserable buggers.

Give the place back to the Spanish, where it belongs!

I have an even better idea...
You and DownWest should get together and form a Limited Company.

 

[DownWest]

Reasonable discussion is clearly a wast of time with you. A. No further comment.

 

[Ariadne]

Why, I don't understand your comment?

I use my boat 365 days a year most of them at sea visiting foreign shores and enjoying their hospitality. Boats are meant for sailing, thats what I do with mine

The OP asked for peoples opinions on Gib' I gave mine - you don't like it, or any other post that is anti Gib'. Good for you to happen to like/live in the place, but its not for me.

 

[VO5]

Why, I don't understand your comment?

I use my boat 365 days a year most of them at sea visiting foreign shores and enjoying their hospitality. Boats are meant for sailing, thats what I do with mine

The OP asked for peoples opinions on Gib' I gave mine - you don't like it, or any other post that is anti Gib'. Good for you to happen to like/live in the place, but its not for me.

I understand your comment less than you understand mine.

You cannot expect a red carpet to be laid out for you and for you to expect hospitality when, as you put it, visiting foreign shores when you go about calling people miserable buggers.

Naturally you get doors slammed on you at worst or at best you get delivered brickbats if you go about behaving like that, apart from blundering along and making really inapropriate political comments about a scenario you know little about, or even nothing, you see ?

If you aspire to fly the flag and be admired and cultivate friendships wherever you go ashore during the course of the long peregrinations you boast about you ought to revise your own attitude first, and be more...er...polite.

 

[VO5]

Reasonable discussion is clearly a wast of time with you. A. No further comment.

That's right. Now get iinto a huff because I have tried to explain and you don't gettit.

I try to be really open and helpful in putting the facts right and you get into a huff if you are contradicted.

I talk plainly. You don't like it, or you don't understand what I am explaining.

I have told you what the problem is in my post to you above.

It is about understanding. Simple.

If you don't understand that you don't understand, it would be unfair of you to expect me to do the intellectual excercise of additionally exonerating you from making the effort to think, that is, to think correctly.

If you don't understand this, come back to me and I will explain it once again until you do, as I am very patient.

 

[DownWest]

What you don't seem to get is that some of the negative opinions are formed by visitors meeting 'trades people' who are not interested in giving good service. After a couple of goes of that, they quite naturally go elsewhere. A few pence on a cup of coffee may be beneath your dignity, but is an excellent way of indicating a 'stuff you' attitude on the part of staff, apart from being illegal in most countries. Not a lot of point in immersing oneself in the culture if the first points of contact (by people who are paid to be receptive) are money grabbing or just plain rude.

Due to a marina clerical error I was stuck there for 3 weeks in the early 80's. I quite enjoyed it, had a good look around the historic bits. One thing was quite clear though, they were Gibraltararians not British. The British bit is very good for business and necessary for their very existance.
A

As for thinking correctly, obviously you mean agreeing with you. Which is not necessaraly the same thing. Even sounds a bit Stasi. )

 

[Brian blue bear]

Proper Britain

Apart from an economy which is hugely dependent on drug smuggling, you mean? And all the dodgy financial services which go with dubious tax regimes?

I'd prefer if we did with Gibraltar what the French do with their overseas départements: make it a proper part of Britain, subject to all British laws and with representatives in the British parliament. Who knows, perhaps that would be more acceptable to Spain than a sleazy tax haven on their doorstep?

Really Orbister, where have you been MPs, British Laws a Govenment voted in on les than 30% of the electorites votes, another stabbing in a quite village last week Americanised Schools along with the problems that brings, Incredably bad government services, and getting worse and I have had the misfortune to use them.... I don't know you Personally but your Mad Views must give you a better than fair chance of being Prime minister.

 

[gjbentley]

Disadvantaged in Gibralter

It may be a tax haven for the rich, but clearly the European Union see it as in need of Social and Economic regeneration aimed at "disadvantaged groups".

A share of the UK European Social Fund budget is allocated to Gibralter for projects aimed at reducing differences in prosperity across the EU and to enhance economic and social cohesion.

So not everything is pefect in what has the appearance of a mini-paradise for Ex-Pat sailors.

And lets be honest, those apes certainly get their fair share of social exclusion !

 

[Nautorius]

OK,

Gibraltar is not everyone’s cup of tea, but it is honest and open. It is no longer a tax haven and has signed 12 reciprocal agreements to share tax information. The 0% Corporation Tax disappears next year to be given 10% and all residents pay tax.

The difference we do not waste our tax revenue. We have pensions, sick pay and unemployment benefit. No other benefits! If you want to live here you have to be able to support yourselves. We have no VAT, Low income tax and no tax on savings or CGT. This is all because there is a budget surplus!

I admit service can be poor, a bit like some parts of Spain. But it is laid back and that is part of the attraction. It either drives you mad and you leave, or you embrace it and stay.

Can I also say that the Gibraltarians are more patriotic than most of England! On national day you see Union Jacks, the Saint George Cross and the Gibraltar flag everywhere. Our armed forces volunteer to go to war with the UK troops and we treat the services personnel with respect.

It is also very child friendly and safe. There are few other places I would prefer to bring up children.

Gibraltar has evolved to survive. Personal taxation has been reduced for the third year and there is an excellent quality of life here.

I know I can not stay here forever, but I am enjoying every minute whilst here!

Oh yes, and the Sailing is great!!!

Paul

 

[saxonpirate]

Hmmn... I think the OP got the title for this thread just about right after reading some of the comments. Some of which, I think are a bit OTT by the way.

As I said in my earlier post, I've got fond memories of Gib. And they were accumulated over extended periods of time, not just a couple of days or weeks.

I've got to admit, I do tend to like places that are a little scruffy and laid back, natural. Where the relentless tide of smart consumerism hasn't turned them into just another rip off destination for tourists and gullible's who want to live in gated communities.. As a sailor now, and speaking with my sailors hat on...give me a scruffy Shepherds any day over glitzy marinas and the whole Ocean Village type concept, that are now springing up just about everywhere. That's why I was particularly enamoured by my first visit when the border was closed. It was a totally unique experience, never to be repeated.

It never failed to amaze me that thousands of people could be crammed into one small area, and there be so little crime. Ok, there was a bit of smuggling going on, but I'm talking about crime against the person. I must have walked just about every square inch of the Rock during my times there, and never felt threatened or unsafe.

And as for it's history, well how long have you got? Incredible.

Gib's no paradise, but it is unique. And as for it's people, well there are good and bad in all. We all have different expectations and needs, so see things differently. As with anywhere in the world, yoo can't expect to know a place until you've lived there. I've lived there and found it fascinating, but that's my opinion.

An old Gibraltarian I met on my first visit to Gib told me "You will be back" he was right, cos for me it's that sort of place, warts and all.....

 

[jonic]

I learned to sail with Jack Peate in the late 90s.

So did I. Cap'n Jack. Great bloke.

 

[Caladh]

oh dear you do want more...

OFFS VO get a grip. Those non-residents who have a different (perhaps, more measured) view of Gib.seem to get your blood pressure up and up and searching for that thesaurus for big words to use. I'd strongly suggest some anger management may be necessary for you ASAP. You cannot hide the fact that you like winding that clock up.

Your responses to my points bear some response and being so self opinionated I just know you will respond.

I'm not surprised that that your not surprised about my views and content.
Of course I represent an outside view because I don't live in Gib.and was a visitor and was asked to comment of whether I liked it or not. I responded with some positive comments and some negatives - fair you would agree ? Unlike your own. Fleeting impressions....that all I can give I was there for 10 days.

Instead of thinking "it is so funny" or "unusual", being a resident I would have thought you would be somewhat chagrained (Meaning of chagrin (noun) strong feelings of embarrassment; mortification. ) about the less than happy comments made here about your beloved isle, rather than your own "don't care attitue" for which I'd almost rest my case (your Honour). BUT -:

Although in previous posts you expound that you are able to explain things clearly, clearly you are quite unable to do this. Quite what the **** about "people I encountered are .....experienced at dealing with non residents" is about is beyond me, as is the b******s about the ruling classes - no relevence at all.

Well that's the first part of your rant. Halfway through you start to address what I actually commented upon.

Just because you deal with the public does not mean a) you have to be rude and b) ignore local H and S rules. DO I REALISE THAT THE PUBLIC CAN TRY THE PATIENCE......? I'd be out of a job if I dealt with the public the way this woman does (or pehaps did, by now). Over the 10 days I was there I found that I was NOT the only visitors who were appalled by her behavior. If you went to another county and were treated that way you wouldn't like it - neither did I.

Neither you nor I can say why the restaurant owner used the marina toilets but I'd guess his customers need to use his own facilities and this was another observation. I just thought it a little strange. I was paying to use the facilities. Still, I wonder where his customers were coming from ?

Your local services do NOT work as well as you think. Your assertion that the toilets at Trafalgar cemety are the responsibility of the people that use them. Quite wrong. They are provided FOR the public by the town. The gents pans were broken and unconnected to the mains but had been "used". They had patently been in this state for some weeks and should have been locked out of use weeks before. You wouldn't like it - neither did I.

I am on a crusing budget. "Trivial", "A few pennies will not bankrupt anyone" - how very dare you ! Ok - I advertise Anger Management for Dummies at £30 to you, but when you come to pay me I want to charge you £35 - of course you give me the money - no questions asked....I'm definitely in the wrong business. At what point does over-charging NOT become acceptable ? You wouldn't like it - neither did I.

JP Morgan ....whaat ?

I thought you had indicated that before spouting off you should get your facts right. The Tunnels flyer was produced by the firm who run the visits - I'd ascertained that the day after I was refused entry. Basically because it was quiet that afternoon they'd decided to close early. Please don't advertise opening times and not adhere to them - you wouldn't like it - neither did I.

The traffic - you should open your eyes on a busy Saturday - the motor cyles are the worst offenders. My wife was almost hit on a zebra - after 20 yards the guy stopped, looked to see if she was ok and then roared off.

Your response to mine and some others on these forums generally show a holier than though attitude. At no point have you answered the burning question (posed several times) of why Gibraltar should still have anything to do with the UK ? If you represent the thinking of Gib. residents I strongly believe that the UK should cut ties and let Gib. be fully indepenent. But hey.....the "residents" wouldn't want that would they ?

I trust you don't visit or have connections with the mother country - you obviously dislike us intensely.

yyaaawnnn..................

PS have you tried the Indian at QW - great service, good value, clean, nice people and great food.

Ha Ha ...Let's see....

This is exactly the sort of post that I enjoy responding to...

Lets start with the first paragraph and work our way down, shall we ?

Your comments are not unusual. They are not unusual either in viewpoint or in content. But they are not unusual because you represent an outside view, which is an uninformed view. It is not exactly what one would call an incisively informed view as all you have been able to observe is a cursory fleeting impression. This small window is the window that fleeting visitors hastily look through, with mixed results. It does not present a broader spectrum, it is rather like a series of hasty snapshots.

You and I differ for several reasons....ahem...but the main reason is that you cannot have an intimate knowledge of a place by just visiting. It is even more difficult if you are an uninvited visitor left to your own devices in which you go about...exploring...without a clue asto what it is you are really looking at and why, you understand.

Other posters on this thread imply that Gib is "grotty". This tickles me pink. I think it is so funny. The reason why I think so is because, like any firmly established society that has occupied an enclave for generations, it develops its own internal life of which the visitor is unaware and is not privy to. I have not experienced what you are recounting but there again, there is a factor you overlook.

What you overlook is that the people you encountered are very experienced at dealing with non residents. These include the ex pats who cannot afford to live here and live across the border in Spain but come here to work. It also includes Spanish workers, including chars, nannies, cooks, messenger girls and boys, cleaners, washerwomen, seamstresses, carpenters, construction workers, plumbers, waiters, crane drivers and scaffolders.

There is a place for everyone and everyone in his place.

These people can immediately identify who's who in the zoo by the way they dress, the way they speak, and the way they behave, immediately. They are very skilled at detecting bad grammar, rude language, poor pronounciation, and in general, being able to recognise bad taste. Then their responses are tailored according to how they are approached and by whom.

They know not to upset the ruling classes.

The ruling classes are easily identified (anywhere you wish to go in the world) not necessarily by visible wealth or ostentation, but by manners. I never have any problems of any sort with any of the categories of persons you mention, but there again I do not create fertile ground for them to disrespect me or act uncivilly.

Now let us examine each of the experiences you have had, and I will give you my views.

You were able to get a berth, were you not ?
You recieved attentive help at the quayside, did you not ?
The lady at reception whom you accuse of being Hitler's sister....have you considered what it mifght mean to have to deal constantly with the public ? Do you realise that the public can try the patience of a statue ? Do you not consider she may have just encountered an upstart of an uneducated and brash visitor and has had time to recover from it, and has had her day spoilt ?

The use of the loo by the other chap may have a simple explanation of which you are not aware. The loo in his own premises may have been blocked, for example. It is not correct to jump to conclusions on the basis of unsupportable evidence.

The public loos by the Trafalgar Cemetry are always a problem. They are not used by peoiple who livew in Gibraltar. They are used by visitors. It is the visitors who make a mess in there. Therefore because of a few visitors' misconduct, all other visitors may have to suffer. You cannot expect someone to devote their entire day to cleaniung up after mucky inconsiderate visitors.

That the price of the coffee was changed that day and that you have taken umbrage at it because it was not announced is trivial, really petty. A few pennies will not bankrupt anyone.

JP Morgan. the famous American financier had two sayings:~

"If you have to discuss what yachting costs, then you cannot afford it"

"You can do business with anyone, but you can only sail with a gentleman".

I believe these two statements to be as valid today as when they were first uttered.

If the tunnels were closed they were closed. The problem lay with the publisher of the flyer, and not the staff at the site.

The amount of traffic is huge, because also there are many visitors who are unfamiliar with the roads, sometimes causing traffic jams. But I have never experienced danger as you imply. In fact, I have experienced courtesy, particularly from the police on point duty who do their best to keep the traffic flowing at difficult times.

I would respectfully suggest you continue with your love affair with Marmite, and resist becoming infatuated with any other interest, including a repeat visit, so that you should not be dissappointed yet again.

 

[Skylark]

Surely Mr VO5 you're not for real, are you? Not even President Brown is this pompous and arrogant. Nice wind-up.

I have neither connection nor interest in Gib. Just spending my lunchtime in the office reading through a few threads and stumbled across this one. Shocked by the rudeness, driven to respond. Issues are irrelevant; civility and courtesy should always prevail.

 

[jonic]

Wow what a punch up.

I'll add my bit now.

First time I went there I hated it. My Dad had been born there but left before he was a year old so we went to see his birthplace. I could not stand it. (It was over 25yrs ago when the military were still very much the overriding presence, and it felt just like many other garrison towns.)

However over the years, through sailing or one reason or another I have had more visits and now I love it. It has changed hugely since the military presence has scaled right down.

It's a great place to learn to sail if doing any RYA courses. Jack used to give out "Intercontinental Yachtsman" T-shirts when you did the 20 odd miles across to Africa. It's warm, varied sailing with great ports to visit nearby. When I crossed the Atlantic with Blue Water Rallies the tourist board laid on visits to all the main sites, a reception at the governors residence and a brilliant caving trip into the usually closed off section of the caves. We were treated superbly.

A few years ago we ended up wintering there with our young son and had a great time. It's without doubt a very, very safe place for kids.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Sorry VO5, I was rooting for you after your first post but I'm afraid you lost the plot after that .......... the 'rest' won I think ... except for Orbister who doesn't like anything or anyone in the whole world, ever .... so I ignore him!

 

[VO5]

OFFS VO get a grip. Those non-residents who have a different (perhaps, more measured) view of Gib.seem to get your blood pressure up and up and searching for that thesaurus for big words to use. I'd strongly suggest some anger management may be necessary for you ASAP. You cannot hide the fact that you like winding that clock up.

Your responses to my points bear some response and being so self opinionated I just know you will respond.

I'm not surprised that that your not surprised about my views and content.
Of course I represent an outside view because I don't live in Gib.and was a visitor and was asked to comment of whether I liked it or not. I responded with some positive comments and some negatives - fair you would agree ? Unlike your own. Fleeting impressions....that all I can give I was there for 10 days.

Instead of thinking "it is so funny" or "unusual", being a resident I would have thought you would be somewhat chagrained (Meaning of chagrin (noun) strong feelings of embarrassment; mortification. ) about the less than happy comments made here about your beloved isle, rather than your own "don't care attitue" for which I'd almost rest my case (your Honour). BUT -:

Although in previous posts you expound that you are able to explain things clearly, clearly you are quite unable to do this. Quite what the **** about "people I encountered are .....experienced at dealing with non residents" is about is beyond me, as is the b******s about the ruling classes - no relevence at all.

Well that's the first part of your rant. Halfway through you start to address what I actually commented upon.

Just because you deal with the public does not mean a) you have to be rude and b) ignore local H and S rules. DO I REALISE THAT THE PUBLIC CAN TRY THE PATIENCE......? I'd be out of a job if I dealt with the public the way this woman does (or pehaps did, by now). Over the 10 days I was there I found that I was NOT the only visitors who were appalled by her behavior. If you went to another county and were treated that way you wouldn't like it - neither did I.

Neither you nor I can say why the restaurant owner used the marina toilets but I'd guess his customers need to use his own facilities and this was another observation. I just thought it a little strange. I was paying to use the facilities. Still, I wonder where his customers were coming from ?

Your local services do NOT work as well as you think. Your assertion that the toilets at Trafalgar cemety are the responsibility of the people that use them. Quite wrong. They are provided FOR the public by the town. The gents pans were broken and unconnected to the mains but had been "used". They had patently been in this state for some weeks and should have been locked out of use weeks before. You wouldn't like it - neither did I.

I am on a crusing budget. "Trivial", "A few pennies will not bankrupt anyone" - how very dare you ! Ok - I advertise Anger Management for Dummies at £30 to you, but when you come to pay me I want to charge you £35 - of course you give me the money - no questions asked....I'm definitely in the wrong business. At what point does over-charging NOT become acceptable ? You wouldn't like it - neither did I.

JP Morgan ....whaat ?

I thought you had indicated that before spouting off you should get your facts right. The Tunnels flyer was produced by the firm who run the visits - I'd ascertained that the day after I was refused entry. Basically because it was quiet that afternoon they'd decided to close early. Please don't advertise opening times and not adhere to them - you wouldn't like it - neither did I.

The traffic - you should open your eyes on a busy Saturday - the motor cyles are the worst offenders. My wife was almost hit on a zebra - after 20 yards the guy stopped, looked to see if she was ok and then roared off.

Your response to mine and some others on these forums generally show a holier than though attitude. At no point have you answered the burning question (posed several times) of why Gibraltar should still have anything to do with the UK ? If you represent the thinking of Gib. residents I strongly believe that the UK should cut ties and let Gib. be fully indepenent. But hey.....the "residents" wouldn't want that would they ?

I trust you don't visit or have connections with the mother country - you obviously dislike us intensely.

yyaaawnnn..................

PS have you tried the Indian at QW - great service, good value, clean, nice people and great food.

Again ?

Aren't you funny.

You seem to be obsessed with the lavatories.

In the first one you form the opinion that because you pay for a mooring in which the facility is based you ought to have exclusive use of it. The best solution is for you to carry a porapottie around with you or your own toilet seat like the Prince of Wales does when he travels overseas (fact) and that would make you happy.

In your second reference to the topic you complain about the state of the heads at Trafalgar Cemetary.

Whose fault is that ?

I will tell you whose fault it is. It is not the locals' fault. It is the fault of visitors. Locals use their own lavatories in their own homes. Visitors have to avail themselves of what is available for public use, you see ?

Therefore the destruction and mess is the responsibility of those who do it, the visitors. Why ? Because the Trafalgar Cemetry Public Toilets are there for the user of visitors, who are entrusted to behave properly, to use them and flush them as they would do in their own homes, unsupervised, and not additionally to vandalise that which is provided for their use.

As a case in point, I had the occasion to visit the lavatories at the Air Terminal building this very morning. I was impressed at how absolutely spotless everything was. Why ? Because these toilets which are provided for the use of passengers are supervised.

Unlike you, the passengers do not get miffed if someone who is not a passenger happens to use them, like me, for example.

They do not adopt an obsession that they are the only people who have an exclusive right to use them by virtue of being a fare paying passenger on an airline, in parallel with what you try to argue.

I am not responsible for the flyers or anything connected with them, so I cannot comment any further. Your best option is to take up the matter with the Ministry of Tourism, or the individual Tour Operator, and not me.

THe Marina you grumble about is obviously one of the two commercial ones.

Again I do not use their mooring facilities. My visits to them are confined to the waterfront on occasion. But there again I am not responsible for your interaction with grumpy women. I find when I interact with the ladies they are not grumpy, so I cannot comment on why you should encounter such unfortunate experiences one after the other.

I will concede you have a point about the traffic and with particular regard to scooters and motorbikes. But there again they are a nuisance everywhere. But at least he made sure she was unharmed. This is not the case in other places. You should not single out The Rock just because of its size and congestion causes traffic problems to be magnified.

I do not have a political opinion. I am not interested in having them or having to defend them or otherwise. I am not a politician.

I have very strong connections with the mother country but not political ones at all.

Neither do I have any cause to dislike or envy anybody.

But when swatting needs to be done I am very pleased to do the swatting if it absolutely necessary.

 

[VO5]

Sorry VO5, I was rooting for you after your first post but I'm afraid you lost the plot after that .......... the 'rest' won I think ... except for Orbister who doesn't like anything or anyone in the whole world, ever .... so I ignore him!

No you are wrong. I haven't lost any plot. The plotters have encountered me instead unfortunately for them.

 

[VO5]

Surely Mr VO5 you're not for real, are you? Not even President Brown is this pompous and arrogant. Nice wind-up.

I have neither connection nor interest in Gib. Just spending my lunchtime in the office reading through a few threads and stumbled across this one. Shocked by the rudeness, driven to respond. Issues are irrelevant; civility and courtesy should always prevail.

Really ? Now that is a refreshing viewpoint considering the Mother Country is the mistress of collective and individual targeted rudeness provided it is delivered cynically and elegantly.

You must concede that there are two obsessions ingrained in the Anglo Saxon psyche...The first regards humour, being the closer you can get to the lavatory the funnier it is.

The second is that rudeness, according to the Anglo Saxon rules of engagement (which as you can see I am totally familiar with) is perfectly acceptable., provided it is done politely.

The higher you go up in the pecking order the more acceptable these two ingrained obsessions truly are.

 

[Heckler]

Sorry VO5, I was rooting for you after your first post but I'm afraid you lost the plot after that .......... the 'rest' won I think ... except for Orbister who doesn't like anything or anyone in the whole world, ever .... so I ignore him!

I reckon Orbister is Mandy in disguise!
Stu