Getting rid of difficult skippers
- Thread starter wully1
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Biggles Wader
Well-Known Member
Thats selective deafness,and I have it too or so Im told when in earshot.
Serin
Well-Known Member
Rubbish!
Your wife, possibly. But in my experience of teaching women to sail (formally and informally), far the most common experience is for men to grab the wheel or the tiller when any difficult manoeuvre is in the offing, so that the woman never gets a chance to develop the skills. Men are prey to the same assumption and acting on it is the norm. And if a person needs their confidence boosted, then being chucked in at the deep end isn't the way to do it.
Men learn by making mistakes (and all too often blaming on their hapless wives and partners) Women rarely do, because if they make a mistake they take the blame regardless and don't get many second chances. And, of course, they run the risk of being held to ridicule (that's "SWMBO" for you!) on the internet.
Generalisation from a single experience isn't really very revealing.
Baddox
Well-Known Member
We have a modest motor boat (and now a yacht too but that’s another story) that my wife has no interest and little experience of helming. We decided to try a flotilla sailing holiday and she kept deferring responsibility to me, even though we were both equally unfamiliar with handling a 40ft yacht.
One windy afternoon we came into a crowded Greek harbour to join the other boats milling around at close quarters waiting for the last ferry to depart so that we could tie up for the evening. I stretched out in the sunshine so my protesting wife had to take the wheel for half an hour. She was soon manoeuvring like a natural, steering the boat working with the wind and light touch on the throttle. The flotilla lead skipper even commented on how well she’d done.
Now when we’re out it’s her yacht and I’ll crew; we work things out together.
One windy afternoon we came into a crowded Greek harbour to join the other boats milling around at close quarters waiting for the last ferry to depart so that we could tie up for the evening. I stretched out in the sunshine so my protesting wife had to take the wheel for half an hour. She was soon manoeuvring like a natural, steering the boat working with the wind and light touch on the throttle. The flotilla lead skipper even commented on how well she’d done.
Now when we’re out it’s her yacht and I’ll crew; we work things out together.
dolabriform
Well-Known Member
I can understand this perspective and especially from a conditioned psychological perspective.
When we started camping with the family my wife was not only clueless about what to do, but also ( to a great extent ) afraid to get involved.
I have had the fortunate experience of being in the scouts, adventure groups, DofE etc, and expect no difference between genders.
She has been brought up in an environment where the 'men do stuff' .
Bit by bit ( and sometimes not easily ) we have worked on this and now we work together to pitch and break camp, and we manage the kids at the same time.
The next adventure is the boat, which she is excited about, and I realise that I am a very lucky person to have someone who is not afraid to try new things.
I guess what I'm trying to say is take some time to give people a chance, especially those you really care about.. they will surprise ( and probably surpass ) you
Regards
David
flaming
Well-Known Member
I'll accept that revision!
Sandyman
Well-Known Member
Thread reminds me to try flashing up my other laptop on which I have many a funny story / dit about Captain Calamity a Yachtmaster I once sailed with. If I can get it going then will post a few on here.
The geezer was a menace on the water. He was supposedly a Yachtmaster but I think he must have qualified with his model yacht on Gosport boating lake. Our association ended when I could no longer put up with his incompetence & the fact that he refused to learn from his mistakes. Ex Navy Colonel Blimp to a tee.
The geezer was a menace on the water. He was supposedly a Yachtmaster but I think he must have qualified with his model yacht on Gosport boating lake. Our association ended when I could no longer put up with his incompetence & the fact that he refused to learn from his mistakes. Ex Navy Colonel Blimp to a tee.
fisherman
Well-Known Member
Timothy West and Prunella Scales are a case in point. When we went on the canal SWMBO left me to do the boat, but after a few locks miraculously found she could handle the boat.
Quandary
Well-Known Member
It is not a generalization, it is a statistical fact, of those boats sailed by mixed couples, how often is the female on the helm? Women can not be forced to adopt the subservient role or to go sailing. The majority must choose to accept that position, I am not in favour of it but it is what happens.
In our case, the motivation to be involved in sailing comes from the male, me, my wife enjoys it, but less than I do and while she does most of the helming at sea, when we are going to windward in a breeze she hands the helm over to me because she knows I get a bigger kick from it. The problem is when we are negotiating locks or berthing she prefers me to helm, not entirely about confidence but I think mainly a perception that the boat, despite being in her name is really mine and therefore I should take responsibility for it. Perhaps the situation where I do all the maintenance and repairs has a bearing on that, all all our sailing life I have been trying to get her to do the close quarters manouevreing while I do the jumping on to pontoons etc.
In the early days when we were both learning together,starting in a dinghy, I was the one interested in the aerodynamics of sail shape etc, forty years later she still doesn't give a damn about rig tension or mast rake and still has to be reminded to adjust the outhaul or move the cars. If she wants to be skipper she needs to smarten up her attitude.
RupertW
Well-Known Member
One of the best things that happened to us after 20 + years of sailing together was buying a boat in the Med so anchoring and picking up laid lines suddenly needed to be done by the foredeck hand. My wife pretty much immediately swapped to helming even though the boat was much bigger than our previous ones. She only hands back to me when she has run out of all other options and we are about to hit something, which is increasingly rare.
After a couple of years of her helming in close quarters I've had to ask her to let me do it a few times a year as the lack of practice wasn't helping me in the extremis situations.
On our first sailing trip together I tried to act like a skipper ought to be with my word as law but after my bafflement when she said that if we were equal on land we'd be equal on water (despite her total lack of experience) I'm skipper only when required by her and fellow crew member the rest of the time. If I hadn't acquiesed I wouldn't be sailing now and we wouldn't have had all the thousands of miles of sailing around so many different countries together.
Serin
Well-Known Member
Doesn't sound as if she wants to be skipper. No reason why she should, if she's happy with that. But there are plenty of women who never get to the point of wanting to do more, often because they don't want to get in to a battle with the men in their lives. I know, because I have sailed with many of them. The assumption is constantly reinforced and, of course, easily so, as most of us take the line of least resistance if we can.
Getting over the assumption that when the going gets tough it's the man's job is one of the biggest obstacles. Several of my female companions have said to me "aren't you strong!" Well, I (a rather slightly built woman in late middle age) am not so strong, but I am determined. And I know that whatever happens, it's all down to me to sort it. So I do. That's what I show to those women. Several have gone on to get their own boats, set of round the world with the clipper race etc. - not things they would have previously imagined themselves doing at all.
Serin
Well-Known Member
They do, indeed. What's more interesting is why that happens. It's a much more complicated and nuanced choice than you seem to imagine.
Many women go along because their partners want to do it. I suspect that rather fewer men would reciprocate with something their partners wanted to do. So there's an immediate phalanx of women who don't have so much real interest. If hey are content, good luck to them.
But, believe me, a awful lot more women would get interested if they were less subservient and more independent as sailors.
There would certainly be less seasickness and less reluctance to face heavy weather etc. But there's still a lot working against that, even now. I wonder how many male skippers here would love the pastime with the same passion if they were
in the same position - always subservient, always crew.......
We have come a long way in the 50 years since I qualified as a sailing instructor, but there's still a long way to go for women in sailing.
Lon nan Gruagach
Well-Known Member
No so keen to accept shouted and abuse so close together.
Shouting happens, no one is perfect, in fact I think I might decide to shout at everyone (once) since if someone cant handle it they are less use and need to be weeded out early.
Reasons for shouting:
big boat (ought to get radios)
noisy environment
poor communication (including the listener, if they dont respond how to know if they heard?)
emergency
and lastly panic
Abuse, on the other hand, should never ever be serious.
jac
Well-Known Member
Interesting point - is it shouting per se that is bad?
Mu own take is that shouting TO someone is fine - e.g. calling the length of the boat over the engine, wind etc.
Shouting AT someone (even if not abusive) is not ok.
MissFitz
Well-Known Member
Too true, sadly. Also, attitude of other male sailors not helpful for women trying to get their partners involved. When we had a boat, my other half was quite frequently asked by passers-by if he felt comfortable being helmed by/taking orders from a woman. He's actually not fussed by that sort of thing (he gave up sailing because he doesn't like it) - but I can imagine others might be more sensitive.
Bru
Well-Known Member
Is a woman no longer allowed to choose, of her own free will, to (and I'm struggling for words here) play a supporting rather than leading role in some aspects of her life?
That may not be as well put as I'd like but it's the best I can come up with!
My wife Jane (I hope that's worded OK!
) is a very quiet but immensely strong minded woman who cannot and will not be coerced or pushed in any way.
She has no burning desire to helm, the white flappy things are considered something of a nuisance and in truth she'd be equally happy if not happier if we had a (preferably fast) motor boat or better yet could teleport from harbour to harbour (it's the travel to new places and time exploring or simply lazing around at anchor she most enjoys, the sailing is just a means to an end). Navigation and passage planning also hold about zero interest
I respect that which is not difficult given that she's fully engaged in every other aspect of our sailing plans.
Her preference is, or until now has been I should say, to leave me to get on with the sailing, navigation and boat handling with her help as an when required. On sailing days, she'll happily do all the "domestic" stuff. On non-sailing days we share the cooking (which we both enjoy), cleaning and so on.
Only now, motivated by a desire to be more involved on deck given our sailing plans over the next few years, has Jane decided for herself and of her own accord to get to better grips with helming, manoeuvring and perhaps later on navigation etc. I could no more have pushed her into doing that sooner than I could carry an elephant!
So maybe, once in a blue moon, that "subservient" wifie hanging on her "skipper's" every word is actually in that role entirely of her own choice. Perhaps. ????
(Please note: "Subservient" is not a word I would use to describe Jane! Not without full body armour and alternative accommodation for a week or two!)
That may not be as well put as I'd like but it's the best I can come up with!
My wife Jane (I hope that's worded OK!
) is a very quiet but immensely strong minded woman who cannot and will not be coerced or pushed in any way. She has no burning desire to helm, the white flappy things are considered something of a nuisance and in truth she'd be equally happy if not happier if we had a (preferably fast) motor boat or better yet could teleport from harbour to harbour (it's the travel to new places and time exploring or simply lazing around at anchor she most enjoys, the sailing is just a means to an end). Navigation and passage planning also hold about zero interest
I respect that which is not difficult given that she's fully engaged in every other aspect of our sailing plans.
Her preference is, or until now has been I should say, to leave me to get on with the sailing, navigation and boat handling with her help as an when required. On sailing days, she'll happily do all the "domestic" stuff. On non-sailing days we share the cooking (which we both enjoy), cleaning and so on.
Only now, motivated by a desire to be more involved on deck given our sailing plans over the next few years, has Jane decided for herself and of her own accord to get to better grips with helming, manoeuvring and perhaps later on navigation etc. I could no more have pushed her into doing that sooner than I could carry an elephant!
So maybe, once in a blue moon, that "subservient" wifie hanging on her "skipper's" every word is actually in that role entirely of her own choice. Perhaps. ????
(Please note: "Subservient" is not a word I would use to describe Jane! Not without full body armour and alternative accommodation for a week or two!)
Resolution
Well-Known Member
+1
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
But we were discussing shouted abuse. Other forms of abuse are available, as are other reasons for shouting.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
I don't think we can change human nature. All we can do is lead by example and hope that defaulters learn from us and are exposed to correction by their associates, which I would hope would include club-mates.
Lon nan Gruagach
Well-Known Member
Ah, fair point, missed that turn.
