Gas safety

bilbobaggins

bilbobaggins

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Over the years, I've come across several 'very unsafe' gas installations on boats - abraded pipes, loose unions, bottles bouncing about in their lockers, restrained only by their regulator piping..... The gas explosion on HMSTY 'Lord Trenchard' a few years ago brought that to mind, as that Nicholson 55 had just about every gas safety device and procedure that the Services could think up - and it still failed catastrophically!

I came across this PDF info brochure today, and think it may have relevance to some. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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The gas explosion on HMSTY 'Lord Trenchard' a few years ago

[/ QUOTE ] Sorry very badly scanned but Lord Trenchard:

24319e0a.jpg


Investigation report for those who do not remember the incident HERE
 
I gave my perfectly serviceable Flavel Vanessa awy and installed a Wallas parafin hob.I know of at least three incidents involving gas that caused deaths .
 
The first thing I did when I bought Freestyle was to install a cooker with self-extinguishing burners, in case the flame blew out. The yard's Corgi man fitted a new regulator and new tails and commented on his report that there might be a tiny leak, and he couldn't find it, but it would be alright if I switched off the gas in the locker when I wasn't using it. The yard tippexed out this part of his report and replaced it with: "Gas must not be used until all pipework replaced." Well, Freestyle seems to have been built around the gas pipe (part of its route is through one of the sealed bouyancy compartments, access to which would involve removing the teak cockpit planking. But I figured if anything went wrong my insurers would walk, so it would have to be done. After much sweat, levering with crowbars, swearing, etc, I finally managed to replace the old pipe with a new one three months ago. (The old pipe was in pristine condition.) I got the local Corgi man to come and make up the joints and test it, which he did, declaring it leak free before tidying up. I had a fry-up to celebrate. When I next tried to light the cooker a couple of days later, the flame spluttered and died, but restarted when I tried again. That's funny, I think, it's never done that before, it's like there is air in the pipe, so I mentioned this to the Corgi man. Like a shot, he came on board with his manometer and sniffer and said "Mmm! We've got a leak here." During his tidying up he had tightened one of the pipe-retaining clips which had shifted the pipe/olive at the obligatory but totally unnecessary inboard gas tap.

Moral: doing jobs to satisfy your insurance company does not necessarily make your yacht safer.
 
It`s usually a combination of errors that cause accidents……Here a badly connected bottle would normally vent overboard and a properly connected bottle would not leak through openings in the gas bottle locker …it`s only when you put the two together that you have a dangerous situation.

The crazy part is there is no legislation to monitor gas work on boats that are privately owned …therefore as this boat was service owned and no charges were levied on the crew there was nothing to stop any gas work done from being bodged…..and indeed it seems it was with the leaky gas locker….

Scary!!!!!

…
 
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The crazy part is there is no legislation to monitor gas work on boats that are privately owned

[/ QUOTE ] Long may it continue. I've nearly been killed twice by dodgy installations done by registered CORGI engineeers (both in houses) and there is no way I would waste money paying one to do gas work on my boat - even assuming I could find one, which I couldn't.

So I don't really understand your attitude at all. 'Experts' can be just as dangerous as amateurs, and frequently are.
 
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It`s usually a combination of errors that cause accidents

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure most of us would agree, and if memory serves, that was reflected in the Inquiry - which is in the MAIB archives, and also in the YM 'past articles' shelves. somewhere.

But here's perhaps the important point...

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"The one lesson we learn from history is that we don't learn the lessons of history.....

[/ QUOTE ]

/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I would suggest that if you have `nearly been killed twice by dody installations` the way forward is to report the `dodgy` fitter to `corgi` and get someone more reliable…NOT resort to diy.
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So I don't really understand your attitude at all. 'Experts' can be just as dangerous as amateurs, and frequently are.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would probably be easier to understand if I told you I have been registered for many years and in my time have seen some diy boat installations that could only be described as lethal….

To suggest that all registered fitters are useless and you should do it yourself is exactly the sort of cavalier attitude that invites legislation…usually after something horrible has happened ….
The explosion on the Nicholson happened alongside Poole Quay.. if they had been out at sea the chances are the skipper would have lost more than a leg…

The bottom line is …if that boat had been checked out by a registered gas fitter the gas bottle locker would have been condemned as unsafe and the accident wouldn`t have happened…




......
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The crazy part is there is no legislation to monitor gas work on boats that are privately owned

[/ QUOTE ] Long may it continue. I've nearly been killed twice by dodgy installations done by registered CORGI engineeers (both in houses) and there is no way I would waste money paying one to do gas work on my boat - even assuming I could find one, which I couldn't.

So I don't really understand your attitude at all. 'Experts' can be just as dangerous as amateurs, and frequently are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are very serious accusations. Presumably you reported the Corgi engineers concerned to Corgi or HSE and the matter was thoroughly investigated and dealt with accordingly. These things are not taken lightly you know.

I had to deal with a gas leak in a domestic property on Friday evening. I can assure you gas was p*issing out of the Emergency Control Valve at the meter. Thats not 'our' bit, so I shut it off, called Nat Grid out and waited for them to arrive. When the engineer arrived the leak had cured itself..there was no trace at all, even using the ultra sensitive gas sniffer..How So? We concluded that the simple act of me shutting the lever off had redistributed the grease on the gas cock and sealed the leak. The engineer still dismantled and regreased the gas cock just to be sure.

Then I got on on with what I had come to do in the first place and fix the boiler.

So gas leaks are odd and sometimes elusive things to deal with.

Tim
 
On a slightly different tack, but similar theme.....

A major viaduct bridge on a Trunk Road nearby is currently being repaired. There are two different 'structural failures', and one of them involves a long-term gas leak. For over two years, peeps stopped at traffic lights at one end of this bridge have been smelling escaped gas, and reporting that to the National Gas Emergency number. I'm aware of this, having done so myself several times, and hearing from neighbours, visiting tradesmen, postmen, etc.

I also found myself talking to a Highways Agency roadman who had turned up - in June 2006 - to do a small repair job on a patch of subsiding bridge footpath, investigated why, and found that the end-arch of this bridge had cracked from its end-buttress under the weight of the daily passage of several hundred HGVs and was slipping. There was a large void behind the crack, and another 'slip' could happen at any time. Tucked under this arch was the end of a canal used to repair canal boats - welding, cutting steel, grinding rust, spray-painting, storage of paint and thinners - and there was a large wire cage store for bottled gas immediately outside.

Embedded in the footpath was a shallow culvert carrying the traffic lights signalling cables..... and a gas main.

Said HA roadman reported the problem to his line manager, who cancelled the planned work as 'too dangerous', and reported up the chain. No-one took responsibility, would sanction an emergency closure of this Trunk Road for urgent repairs, while gas continued to escape into a void under a major road, for two years.......

Here's a shot taken a few weeks ago, with the traffic lights cables extracted, and with the crack and void clearly visible.

IMG_0397b.jpg
 
I found a gas bottle connection not tightened and smelling of gas last year. I had thought I was doing the right job turning off gas at bottle and in locker every night, but this gave me a fright. Always check bottle connection now when turning the gas on
 
Webcraft,

Some 20+ years ago a local version of a CORGI man came to fix a gas leak in my house and nearly had us both "blown away into the blue" by testing for the leak just above the gas regulator using a BIC cigarette lighter!!! I very nearly threw him out the window (of a fifth floor apartment)!!! I think he might still have the bruises I caused!!!! Stupid idiot -- testing for a leak with a naked flame.

I won't trust such incompetents ever again. I watch them like a hawk while they work, just in case.
 
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Those are very serious accusations.

[/ QUOTE ] Not accusations - facts. The guy who installed our Calor fire refused to come back and fix it after a second engineer had condemned the installation and turned off our heating completely. I had to complain bitterly and repeatedly to Calor who eventually forced the guy to come out and put his dangerous installation right. I am sure the guy is still Corgi registered and doing installations.

The second time involved the installation of a Calor hob. I just phoned up and asked if it was normal for there to be a two inch flame coming out from the pipe behind the cooker. In this case the boss of the firm was back pronto to fix the potentially lethal error. I didn't bother reporting anyone to anybody on this occasion as my experience of reporting alleged 'professionals' of any shade is that a profession is if nothing else a mutual ar*e-covering society.

Whether it is gas, electricity, building or work on the boat I prefer to either do the work myself or get someone I know personally whose standards of work I have personal knowledge of. Competence and attitude are infinitely more important to me that a piece of paper.

Sorry if I sound cynical, but to me a CORGI registration looks like a license to print money.


- W
 
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Sorry if I sound cynical, but to me a CORGI registration looks like a license to print money

[/ QUOTE ] I think you will find that they take incidents of the type you mention very seriously and will suspend or expel members found guilty of such misdemeanours. It is possible to check their website for firms and individuals who been so sentenced.

Still dont trust them though!
 
" I didn't bother reporting anyone to anybody on this occasion as my experience of reporting alleged 'professionals' of any shade is that a profession is if nothing else a mutual ar*e-covering society."

You still should have, and your second assertion is simply not true. Corgi have had problems deciding whether they should just be a heavy handed policeman, or more educationalist, but, having been questioned over a gas 'incident' (not of my making..I found the fault and RIDDOR'd it) I can assure you they are very thorough and very searching. They wanted to see the maintainance record of this boiler for the last seven years and question everyone who had worked on it. And they did.

I'd agree there is too much slack work out there, but there is an awful lot of good highly professional work done as well and its not appropriate to tar us all with the same brush.

Tim
 
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I didn't bother reporting anyone to anybody on this occasion as my experience of reporting alleged 'professionals' of any shade is that a profession is if nothing else a mutual ar*e-covering society.


[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO if you are not prepared to make a complaint when it is needed then probably best not to go making sweeping general statements regarding the competancy or alleged sharp business practices of other CORGI engineers.

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I am sure the guy is still Corgi registered and doing installations.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are quite happy to let him put other people's lives in danger then?
 
Why on earth does every potential danger have to mean that we should use professionals?

Of course gas is potentially dangerous. Petrol, electricity, engines, the sea are also potentially dangerous. The logical conclusion is that we should employ "professionals" for every job that could cause difficulties. I suppose that we should include professional skippers, navigators, etc etc to keep the nanny happy.

I wonder how many gas "incidents" there were in boats laast year, compared with other "incidents".
 
You'd only have to work with us a few weeks to see why. The DIY gas operative by and large simply does not know what he/she is doing or what he is dealing with. He does not know the right questions to ask, how to assess a level of risk or how to conduct tests that satisfy even the most basic of gas safety regulations, or work in a safe manner.

There are of course honourable exceptions to this, but that what they are for the most part, exceptions. DIY work is usually easy to spot..and its normally cooker installations..which I have found done with garden hose pipe, no sealant of any kind on joints..therefore leaking..with gas pipes rubbing on electrical cables, flexi hose fitted with the bayonet mounted on the cooker (found this four times at least). Inappropriate pipe sizing e.g. long runs of 15mmm gas pipe for a 25km combi boiler, lean tos built over external flue, dangerous flue modifications, blocked ventilation (bricked up in a couple of cases).

Its more common than you think, and sometimes its other tradesmen to blame..kitchen fitters using the ventilation grille to install an extractor fan is quite common.

Believe it.

Tim
 
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