Gas Installation Requirements

[SimonP85]

We recently asked a local marine gas engineer to disconnect the cooker on the boat so that we could remove it from the space to allow us to give the area a long overdue deep clean. On reconnecting and running a pressure test the engineer found a drop in pressure which he traced back to a leaking and superfluous isolation valve. This valve was not immediately visible but still accessible to service and replace.

The leaking isolation valve has now been replaced with a standard compression joint and the system pressure is good, but the boat has failed the safety check due to: 1) No isolation valve at the cooker end 2) New compression joint (replacing leaking isolation valve) that serves no purpose and as such is necessary.

The engineer is now suggesting the entire gas installation needs to be redone in order to comply with the regulations, in particular to ensure one seamless run of copper pipe from the gas locker to cooker isolation valve.

Can anyone comment on the above? From looking at the Boat Safety Scheme guide here the advice on compression joints seems to be that they are allowed as long as they are accessible and serviceable, which this is. Does the fact that it's an unnecessary joint (not providing a T or similar) mean that it's not acceptable? 7.10.3/R suggests that unused connection points are ok provided they are suitably capped off so I'm not sure why a simple straight connection wouldn't be?

Lastly it's been suggested that an isolation valve needs to be fitted at the cooker end. This has been recommended previously by the surveyor but looking at the guide above regulation 7.11.1/R seems to imply that for an installation of one appliance connected by hose the valve at the cylinder is sufficient - but is this as installation of hose only, not bottle-hose-pipe-hose-cooker?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/164540/bss guide chap7.pdf

 

[pvb]

Do you actually need a BSS certificate? Where is the boat used?

 

[VicS]

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Refit a local isolation valve.

It may be unnecessary for a BSS certificate but I guess that's not what you are wanting for a Solent based boat.


Gas Check Marine Ltd were the recommended marine gas engineers for the area. They have been taken over by Apollo Gas Ltd . Maybe try these people in future........ Not seen any adverse comments about them

 

[Heckler]

We recently asked a local marine gas engineer to disconnect the cooker on the boat so that we could remove it from the space to allow us to give the area a long overdue deep clean. On reconnecting and running a pressure test the engineer found a drop in pressure which he traced back to a leaking and superfluous isolation valve. This valve was not immediately visible but still accessible to service and replace.

The leaking isolation valve has now been replaced with a standard compression joint and the system pressure is good, but the boat has failed the safety check due to: 1) No isolation valve at the cooker end 2) New compression joint (replacing leaking isolation valve) that serves no purpose and as such is necessary.

The engineer is now suggesting the entire gas installation needs to be redone in order to comply with the regulations, in particular to ensure one seamless run of copper pipe from the gas locker to cooker isolation valve.

Can anyone comment on the above? From looking at the Boat Safety Scheme guide here the advice on compression joints seems to be that they are allowed as long as they are accessible and serviceable, which this is. Does the fact that it's an unnecessary joint (not providing a T or similar) mean that it's not acceptable? 7.10.3/R suggests that unused connection points are ok provided they are suitably capped off so I'm not sure why a simple straight connection wouldn't be?

Lastly it's been suggested that an isolation valve needs to be fitted at the cooker end. This has been recommended previously by the surveyor but looking at the guide above regulation 7.11.1/R seems to imply that for an installation of one appliance connected by hose the valve at the cylinder is sufficient - but is this as installation of hose only, not bottle-hose-pipe-hose-cooker?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/164540/bss guide chap7.pdf

You don't need any Gas Certificates unless you have a canal boat.
There are a lot of bull talkers out there.
here is the definitive from the RYA http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safe-boating/look-after-yourself/Pages/gas.aspx

 

[VicS]

You don't need any Gas Certificates unless you have a canal boat.
There are a lot of bull talkers out there.
here is the definitive from the RYA http://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safe-boating/look-after-yourself/Pages/gas.aspx

To be fair to the Op he was not asking for a "gas certificate" only for a safety check, but no doubt if it had passed the check he would have been given a document of some kind to confirm the fact. A document he could produce if asked for evidence of a satisfactory gas safety check.

 

[PaulRainbow]

To be fair to the Op he was not asking for a "gas certificate" only for a safety check, but no doubt if it had passed the check he would have been given a document of some kind to confirm the fact. A document he could produce if asked for evidence of a satisfactory gas safety check.

The engineer is now suggesting the entire gas installation needs to be redone in order to comply with the regulations, in particular to ensure one seamless run of copper pipe from the gas locker to cooker isolation valve.

 

[Heckler]

To be fair to the Op he was not asking for a "gas certificate" only for a safety check, but no doubt if it had passed the check he would have been given a document of some kind to confirm the fact. A document he could produce if asked for evidence of a satisfactory gas safety check.

He gets an expert to remove his stove so that he can deep clean, then a leak is found in an isolation valve when the stove is replaced. now first of all, if it had been leaking previously I would hazard a guess that he either should have smelt it OR gas could have built up from the leak in his bilges and we all know what could happen next. Then when he or the expert replaces the valve with a connector he is told it doesn't comply? I smell a load of bull and tooth sucking by so called experts! As I have said, the definitive is in the RYA link. By the way your self and PVB mentioned certificates, not arguing by the way
Stu

 

[Little Dorrit]

I suggest you read the Boat Safetyscheme Guide and then get someone to do a pressure test.

 

[[70521]]

The engineer is now suggesting the entire gas installation needs to be redone in order to comply with the regulations, in particular to ensure one seamless run of copper pipe from the gas locker to cooker isolation valve.

I know I a cynical engineer, but this sounds a great wee earner. How old is the existing installation?

Might be cheaper to fit a gas bubble leak detector if you don't already have one. You might find you do have a leak or not.

https://www.asap-supplies.com/gas-leak-bubble-tester-10mm-fittings-307956

P.S. he is a technician not an engineer, just a wee rant I have.

 

[Heckler]

I suggest you read the Boat Safetyscheme Guide and then get someone to do a pressure test.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/ Is owned by the Canal and River trust, a notoriously ott organisation. If you follow their other guidelines applying them to our yots we would never be able to use them as we do. Follow my link to the RYA for the definitive that applies to us!

 

[Heckler]

I know I a cynical engineer, but this sounds a great wee earner. How old is the existing installation?

Might be cheaper to fit a gas bubble leak detector if you don't already have one. You might find you do have a leak or not.

https://www.asap-supplies.com/gas-leak-bubble-tester-10mm-fittings-307956

I can almost see in my minds eye the tooth sucking going on as the OP is fed a line

 

[pvb]

I know I a cynical engineer, but this sounds a great wee earner. How old is the existing installation?

Anyone who employs a "gas engineer" just to remove a cooker obviously isn't very practical - that's not a criticism, just an observation. But I'd think that such a person might be very vulnerable to "gas engineers" turning a simple job into something much more lucrative.

 

[Heckler]

Anyone who employs a "gas engineer" just to remove a cooker obviously isn't very practical - that's not a criticism, just an observation. But I'd think that such a person might be very vulnerable to "gas engineers" turning a simple job into something much more lucrative.

Indeed, hence my cynical posts

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

Indeed, hence my cynical posts

But how is the gate?


Interesting point. The BSS article refers to BS EN ISO 10239:2000. However the ISO was revised in 2014. Maybe significant changes there..

 

[SimonP85]

Many thanks for the replies.

I am actually very practical and as it happens a chartered engineer so also take offence at these folk calling themselves engineers when they are not, but did not feel the need to drag up that argument here!

My reason for employing someone to do this work is because I do not want to play with gas on board. I’d rather know it’s been done properly and not going to lead to a build up of gas in the bilge or similar which I would think is understandable.

All I wanted to gauge was if a straight connection was indeed “unnecessary” and if a isolation valve at the cooker side was required.

The RYA link is useful so thanks for this.

 

[SimonP85]

I suggest you read the Boat Safetyscheme Guide and then get someone to do a pressure test.

Thanks, but I linked this in my post above

From other posts however it seems that this does not apply to this type of installation. I’ll now be following up on the RYA article and going back to the “engineers” with questions as to the regulations they believe I need to adhere to.

 

[Gymnopedie]

As a "very practical" man I would follow the adage that "if you want a job done well, do it yourself".

By all means look at the "Regulations" to ascertain best practice but then follow your engineering instincts of never taking anything for granted and make no short cuts.

By the way I am about to fit an electric "fail safe" valve immediately after the regulator; illuminated push button switch close to the cooker which is lit when the valve is open and a healthy reminder to isolate all gas from the cabin when not in use.

 

[VicS]

Interesting point. The BSS article refers to BS EN ISO 10239:2000. However the ISO was revised in 2014. Maybe significant changes there..

I believe the latest edition is in fact 2017 but at £180 to buy I guess I'll never know what it says!

 

[Caladh]

Thanks, but I linked this in my post above

From other posts however it seems that this does not apply to this type of installation. I’ll now be following up on the RYA article and going back to the “engineers” with questions as to the regulations they believe I need to adhere to.

The issue the OP may have is that your "engineer" will say that he has his own gas safety regulations that he adheres to and will only carry out work that is up to "his" standards. I don't know how old the boat is but as we know we don't muck about with gas on board. Do it properly especially if the OP intends to keep the boat but get another more recommended engineer to do it. As you'll see in another post I have recently come across professionals and experts in their field who are patently not what they make out to be.

 

[doug748]

Don't know why I am posting really except to second what others have said.

- Fit a leak tester near the bottle so you can check your system, including any refurbishment, when you like.

- If you can find the time, do the work yourself.

- Use all the printed information as a guide and deviate from it as you think fit.

Many, perhaps most, explosions seem to be from chronic operational mistakes often made by large crews, unfamiliar with the boat, in difficult circumstances.
Tiny unsuspected leaks, in privately used vessels with well managed systems are perhaps less of a fear.

The only time I used a certified professional he over tightened all the fittings, charged me 150 quid and still left me with a leak.