Fuel Cells for Power Generation

I am very excited about the concept of fuel cells - it seems to me to be the technology we are waiting for to enable us to dump the infernal combustion engine so pleased to see that you are exploiting them commercially.

However at the moment those costs and capacities suggest that it is still rather a niche product. In terms of practicality and running costs I am guessing a suitcase petrol generator is probably a more appropriate solution in most cases.

But I am looking forwards to the 10kW version so I can convert by boat to electric rather than diesel!
 
i'm with Bedouin here.... great technology, and exciting potential, but the prices are just too high for me at the moment.... for the same capital outlay you could buy a wind generator and two large solar panels with a fair bit of change and the cost of 3 months worth of liveaboard usage is a couple of tanks of diesel at minimum!

Be great when it reaches some sort of critical mass and can compete on cost as the environmental benefits are clear to see.
 
TomC said:
The carbon in the methanol combines with two oxygen to create a small (and insignificant) amount of CO2.
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I accept that you are not specificaly claiming any "green" credentials, but my calc. suggests that 1 Kg of methanol generates ~1.4 Kg of CO2.
Hardly insignificant, same order of magnitude as other hydrocarbon fuels, eg petrol engines etc.
 
Not wishing to rain on the parade, but...
and it's a big but.

The price! Not only astronomical for a tiny output, and I thought photovoltaics were expensive - the usual thing for "alternative" power sadly, but the insane price for the methanol! Methanol is a common industrial product that is produced in huge quantities and is cheap as chips. It is a major constituent of biodiesel.
The requirement to use their own brand, however pure, may or may not be genuinely anything to do with warranty, but given that self-imposed monopoly £4 - 5 per litre seems somewhat, er, adventurous, shall we say.

OK. this is in bulk, and in USA, but it is 99.8% Methanol FOB Price: US $1.3 / Gallon. Note Dollars, that is, and per GALLON! ie 43c per litre. 30p. Hmmm...



TomC said:
Hi,

They use about 0.9l of Methanol per kW produced.
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And sadly once again output figures are being quoted in units that make no sense. Kilowatts or Kilowatt hours? One would hope that a company actually marketing the things would be able to get something that basic correct. Where does that leave our belief all the other figures/units quoted?
 
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Thanks Tom for the information so far, and thanks for not blazing your company's name on all your posts.

The units are relatively expensive now, but I guess that's the cost of new technology. What sort of lifespan do they have - say a 65 watt model in use by a liveaboard 365 days a year and generating for ten hours a day to put 50ah into the battery bank (a useful amount on a smaller yacht). Will it run reliably for years, or are there catalysts/parts which need to be replaced?
 
I've said this before but here goes.

Methanol burns with an invisible flame. It also burns damned hot, it catches fire pretty easily, it corrodes metals and has a particularly aggressive dislike for aluminium.

So. fuel cells are good when the sun is not shining and when a reliable power source is required. Perhaps then in bad weather? So, you want me to take this potentially dangerous liquid and funnel it into a fuel cell on a pitching boat?

There are a few kinks to iron out I think, let alone £5 / litre for fuel!

Fuel will have to be stored in the original containers to ensure it stays 100% pure - how about making that container plug into the fuel cell ( if it doesn't already that is! )

For £1750 I can line the most of the deck with solar cells, double or even treble the size of the battery bank and reduce the risk of ever needing such a power source.

For £5k I can get a pretty slick, on demand 220v diesel generator with water cooling

99.5% methanol costs about £5. Its a hell of a leap to £50 for 5l!
 
Muddy Paws said:
my calc. suggests that 1 Kg of methanol generates ~1.4 Kg of CO2.
Hardly insignificant, same order of magnitude as other hydrocarbon fuels, eg petrol engines etc.
Click to expand...

Pretty much has to be, doesn't it? Either that or you're not getting all the energy out of it that you could.

The real question is CO2 per amp-hour, as it's power we're interested in not litres of fuel. Hopefully with a process that doesn't involve lots of heat and explosions and whirling metal, you'll get more power for your litre, and hence less CO2 for your power.

Not that CO2 is something that excites me all that much, frankly.

Pete
 
TomC said:
Take for example the most popular unit, the 65W. This outputs about 5A continuous and uses just over 1l per day.We sell Methanol in either 5L or 10L.

5L is £48 for a pack of two (so £4.80 per l)
10L is £73 for a pack of two (so £3.65 per l)
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So the running cost of the leccy is £3.65 for 120 AH or 3 pence per AH.

The smallest diesel generator I could find produces 125 AH at 12 v for every litre of red diesel - say £1. So one third the fuel cost. Noisier and probably heavier but produced 230v for the toaster and the immersion heater too.

But the real alternative for 12v is the thing you have to have anyway - the main engine. The cost per AH is likely to be nearer that of the fuel cell but there is no extra capital cost.

So phone me when I can replace my diesel with a leccy motor and a fuel cell burning cheap fuel at roughly the same capital cost.

P.S. 4.6kg of CO2 for every litre burned isnt trivial either.

P.P.S. Interesting website here for those of an eco persuasion.
 
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earlybird said:
I accept that you are not specificaly claiming any "green" credentials, but my calc. suggests that 1 Kg of methanol generates ~1.4 Kg of CO2.
Hardly insignificant, same order of magnitude as other hydrocarbon fuels, eg petrol engines etc.
Click to expand...
But it is green because I assume methanol is a bio-fuel so the the CO2 emitted does not contribute to global warming
 
So, lets see if I can summarise this....

Currently the offering is significantly more expensive than existing charging methods, no more environmentally friendly than existing engine based system and considerably worse for the environment than solar and wind, and potentially dangerous if it fails.... can't say its inspiring me at the moment to go rushing out and spend a good few grand!
 
Efficiency?

Three related questions to the manufacturer if I may please (in order to judge when the moment to adopt fuel cells might arrive):

1. what is the overall energetic efficiency of the process? Ie how many Joules / kg of fuel used do we get as electrical energy compared to the number of Joules which one would get were the fuel to be burned?

2. How does that compare to a modern diesel engined generator, lets say a 5kW one? (ie does one have to carry more or less volume of fuel for the same amount of elctrical energy?)

3. What do you think is the likely improvement we can expect over time? (Please say if the improvement, if any, relies on other fuels such as hydrogen becoming availbale).
 
Re Fastnet and Code of Practice

Hi Tom,

Could you let us have the details of the fuel cell you used for the Fastnet, how it was installed and what sort or electrics you were running for the race?

I am also interested to find out what a surveyor would say about the installation from a Code of Practice for Small Commercial Craft would have to say?

Cheers,

John
 
Tom, your website says "Our parent company has had industrial units out in the field for up to four years. A few of these early units are beginning to come back, some with simple-to-fix faults and a few which are clearly at the end of their life. Most of these have 4,000 or more hours operational hours logged."

Bearing in mind the optional 3-year warranty you offer has a 3000 hour limit, should we assume that around 4000 hours is the life expectancy of a leisure fuel cell? If so, the fuel cost of around 3p per Ah produced would go up to 25p per Ah on the £1750 smallest unit!
 
TomC

Thank you, it is the first time I hear about commercially available fuel cells, therefore the post is more than welcome.

The solution attracts me because it is always hard to find a suitable and large enough space to fit an effective solar panel on a sail boat, whilst wind turbines always end up with spoiling the elegance of sailing yachts' lines.

However the price you quoted for the max 90W (is £4615 inclusive of VAT for us mortals? I ask because I am afraid my salary is not + VAT!!!) is very, very expensive. I would be prepared to consider an installation if the prices where more competitive with solar and wind generation costs per Watt. I would accept a little more, but not 10 times more.
 
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I may be one of the few forumites who uses a fuel cell. I have a fuel cell and a single solar panel.
I did a 10-day trip last summer, and my particular cell (bought second hand and about 4 years old) worked flawlessly.
What's great - silent, no maintenance (OK I think they have to be refurbished after a few years), no emissions (OK, a bit of water in the bilge, some CO2 that you don't notice and a bit of heat in the cabin), "fit and forget" (it goes on and off as necessary, or you can choose when to charge if you prefer), light (the units themselves are almost unbelievably light - you could literally pick a unit up with one finger. Fuel obviously weighs more)
What's not so great - cost, cost of fuel, storage of fuel, won't start up with a dead battery (you need some battery power to start the electronics to get it into charging mode)

It is probably still a niche product and I have heard of some particular examples that have had reliability problems (maybe the unit that was built on a Monday morning). But my experience is entirely positive.

I may even fit a second one for redundancy on my transatlantic trip.
 
What an excellent thread! ... and it's gone on for several pages without anybody being rude to anybody else!

Morgana (no relation) seems to sum it up well for me. It looks like good technology but except for special cases is simply not economically justifiable for ordinary mortals. Can we expect it to become appreciably cheaper, I wonder, or does the technology involve materials whose availability will be mean the price will always be high?
Morgan
 
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