From non-ST to ST genoa sheet winches

[geem]

I had 2 pairs of ST 30s on my Bavaria 33 with a 20sqm jib and a 60sqm cruising chute. The aft pair were close enough to the wheel such that I could short tack up and down the harbour. Left the handles in all the time and often in lighter airs I could get away without cranking at all, or only the last bit of trimming. Forward pair were used for the chute. Would not be without them - fortunately my latest boat came with ST 43s, way OTT and i might see if I can sell them and go down to 30s as genoa is around 25sqm

Our genoa is 65m2. I increased the main genoa winches from the original under sized Barlow none St to Lewmar 58STs. Its a game changer but sometimes wish I had gone bigger.
I just had the lewmar 43 Waveline spinnaker winches modified to ST jaws. The waveline jaws were worn out. In total we have 11 winches. Originally all none ST now 7 of the heavily used ones are ST. The spinnaker winch really doesn't need ST, nor the mainsail reefing winch or the mizzen staysail winch. The fifth winch on the main mast doesn't get used since I added jammers to the jib and genoa halyards. I can now use an ST winch to tension either halyard.
ST,winches are fantastic when you need them but not every winch needs them in my experience

 

[BabaYaga]

Yes, you can leave the rope out of the jaws. In fact, you ALWAYS leave the tail out when pulling the jib across hand-over-hand (1-2 turns on the drum), and ONLY put the tail in the jars (4-6 turns) when you start grinding. Of course, the handle is kind of in the way anytime you add or remove turns.

I suggest learning to use the tiller pilot when tacking. It should work (autotack feature) but you do need to learn the tricks, such as bumping +10 a few times just before hitting auto tack to get the boat to tack past close hauled just a little. Easing the main a little at head-to-wind also helps. The auto tack works better in stronger winds than very light wind.

I guess the exact work flow of a tacking manoeuvre varies from boat to boat and skipper to skipper, depending on the layout of the cockpit and how you like to position yourself. Personally I always leave the handle out until the moment I need it to start grinding. I image I would like to do the same if I installed ST winches.
So perhaps 2 turns on the drum for hand over hand hauling, then a few more turns and into the jaws, handle in socket, start grinding first speed, then second speed...

The auto pilot control head is awkwardly positioned in the foot well, but I might give that a try some day....

 

[thinwater]

I guess the exact work flow of a tacking manoeuvre varies from boat to boat and skipper to skipper, depending on the layout of the cockpit and how you like to position yourself. Personally I always leave the handle out until the moment I need it to start grinding. I image I would like to do the same if I installed ST winches.
So perhaps 2 turns on the drum for hand over hand hauling, then a few more turns and into the jaws, handle in socket, start grinding first speed, then second speed...

The auto pilot control head is awkwardly positioned in the foot well, but I might give that a try some day....

Yes, that all sounds right to me.

Like most things, the pilot just takes practice. I make it look easier now than I did 40 years ago! I guess I know every way to do it wrong ... except for the new ways I'm still learning.

 

[zoidberg]

Now that I'm old, I'm not in that much of a hurry.
Having short-tacked a Rival 34 up the Owenboy River without a chart, I'd recommend a young Royal Marine sergeant to do the tack-on-tack setting up and quick sheeting in. One just needs the judgement to determine 'when'......

 

[geem]

Now that I'm old, I'm not in that much of a hurry.
Having short-tacked a Rival 34 up the Owenboy River without a chart, I'd recommend a young Royal Marine sergeant to do the tack-on-tack setting up and quick sheeting in. One just needs the judgement to determine 'when'......

We tacked our way up the Boon channel today in Antigua. Hard on the wind with a ton of current against us. Towing the dinghy was a bad idea. Working jib and full main made the tacking a doddle. Lewmar 58s on a tiny 285sqft jib is slight overkill but makes light work. It was fairly short tacking but was good to get some practise in. The Mrs did the sheet winching, I did the runners which lead to the spinnaker winches. Everything ST winches. Easy

 

[thinwater]

Now that I'm old, I'm not in that much of a hurry.
Having short-tacked a Rival 34 up the Owenboy River without a chart, I'd recommend a young Royal Marine sergeant to do the tack-on-tack setting up and quick sheeting in. One just needs the judgement to determine 'when'......

. I like that. I hope he's around to help with your next bottom job.

But much of avoiding the work of grinding in the jib is getting the timing just right. You want to be pull the last of the sheet in just as the sail is ready to fill, with 2 turns on the winch to keep it from pulling back out. No back winding the jib if possible (and it should be possible if the turn in rate was correct and the running rigging is low friction). Done properly, you should only need a single turn on the winch. In lighter winds, perhaps none, depending on the size of the boat (under 30 feet).

I really don't do much grinding, unless coming up from a reach to close hauled in a blow. It's all timing.

(I've gotten smarter with age--no choice)

 

[zoidberg]

Actually, the 'good sort' RM sgt. didn't really like taking 'suggestions' from an ex-RAF officer/navigator. Wrong service. He'd have preferred the boat's owner, who had once been a Royal Navy lieutenant - but was an electrical power technical type ( submarines ) and knew diddly-squat about managing a sailboat. That's why we were there.....

.....and despite having no chart, we made it up to and onto the Royal Cork Yacht Club's pontoon around 1000am, dropped a couple of lines over cleats, then went to the bar.... where we discover the Club's new Admiral and his team of cronies 'making book' on where we'd run aground. He didn't know we were sans engine and chart, and it turned out we were the first 'foreign' boat that season, so he bought the first AND the second round.

They're a VERY good bunch in that club!

 

[Neeves]

If I were buying new winches, for whatever reason, I would increase the size of the winches (unless the originals were uniquely over specified). having slightly over specified winches makes it easier for the less muscle bound to contribute - unless of course you don't want the company of the less muscle bound.

A ST is not so critical with small loads (as you can grind with one hand and tail with the other) but becomes more useful when you need to use both hands on a winch handle.

I would never leave a winch handle in a winch - too easy to become a hazard (and as we have 6 winches - would be a major investment (for double handed handles).

Jonathan

 

[Poignard]

When my Twister was built in 1967 she was fitted with Gibb bottom-action sheet winches which were not self-tailing.

I, and presumably her previous owners, managed perfectly well with these. Then, a few years ago, I got the chance to buy a pair of hardly used Lewmar single-speed self-tailers for just £80.

The old Gibbs were by then badly worn, and needed re-sleeving so I replaced them with the Lewmars.

These are more convenient to use but if I had not been able to get them so cheaply I would have kept the old Gibbs and repaired them.

 

[doug748]

If you have already fitted Winchers, I doubt if you would get much extra value from STs to justify their cost.

Indeed, as usual it's all about context. On a 29ft boat things like electric anchor winches, bow thrusters, furling mains and self tailing winches are just glitter, more cost, complication and trouble than they are worth in my opinion.

I knock my shins on regular winches, might need shin pads with taller units.

.

 

[johnalison]

Indeed, as usual it's all about context. On a 29ft boat things like electric anchor winches, bow thrusters, furling mains and self tailing winches are just glitter, more cost, complication and trouble than they are worth in my opinion.

I knock my shins on regular winches, might need shin pads with taller units.

.

We had STs on our Sadler 29 and they were definitely a blessing, but I agree that most of the other stuff would be unnecessary.

Personally, I leave the handle in most of the time. I have not encountered any problems with it getting in the way, and it is ready for use whenever I want to make an adjustment. Although I have never, yet, lost a winch handle overboard, the time of greatest risk is when putting the handle in and out, so the less this is done the better as far as I am concerned.

 

[BabaYaga]

Thanks all for the further replies.

If I were buying new winches, for whatever reason, I would increase the size of the winches (unless the originals were uniquely over specified). having slightly over specified winches makes it easier for the less muscle bound to contribute - unless of course you don't want the company of the less muscle bound.

A ST is not so critical with small loads (as you can grind with one hand and tail with the other) but becomes more useful when you need to use both hands on a winch handle.

The Andersen 34's that I'm considering should give me a slight power increase compared to the present Lewmar 30's. Not possible to go larger than that because of limited width of the 'shelf' where they are to be mounted.

On a 29ft boat things like electric anchor winches, bow thrusters, furling mains and self tailing winches are just glitter,

We had STs on our Sadler 29 and they were definitely a blessing

For me it is the option of using both hands on the handle for cranking in the last centimetres, in order to get the foot of the genoa sufficiently flat, that stands out as the main potential benefit of upgrading to ST.
As in the type of situation pictured below: Close hauled in about 18 knots of wind, one reef in main, full genoa, gunwale in water. With the present L30's I find this hard work, being 'one-armed'.

 

[LadyInBed]

I would not say the rubber Winchers are rubbish.... but they make sheeting a bit unreliable, in my experience. I only use them to increase friction, not for cleating off

Is your cleat after the winch?
A cam cleat before the winch would, I think, make life a lot easier and if you haven't got this arrangement it would be a lot cheaper than ST's.

 

[thinwater]

Is your cleat after the winch?
A cam cleat before the winch would, I think, make life a lot easier and if you haven't got this arrangement it would be a lot cheaper than ST's.

You can't use a cam cleat between the winch and the load. That is what jammers are for.

After the winch the cam cleat sees only the hand held, tailing load. Before the winch (between the winch and the load) it will see the full line load, which will break the cam cleat.

 

[BabaYaga]

Yes, jamming cleat is after the winch. Not practical to install anything before the winch, in my case. I reckon the cleats will be redundant if I go ST.

 

[steveeasy]

Also depends how big your Genoa is ?. My last boat had had a fractional rig with a small genoa. I had Old Lewmar 30 2 speed winches and they were great. It would have helped me having STs but it was bottom of my wish list. My new boat has a much bigger Genoa and Yes Luckily its got spanking new Lewmar ST46s on it and for good reason too. I think it would be extremely difficult coping with a much bigger sail singlehanded, even with two it would be hard going.
Steveeasy

 

[thinwater]

Yes, jamming cleat is after the winch. Not practical to install anything before the winch, in my case. I reckon the cleats will be redundant if I go ST.

No, they will NOT be redundant. In fact, my last two boats had cam cleats factory installed after the ST winches.

In gusty conditions a cam cleat is much faster to release and easier to control. In light conditions, it is faster to skip the ST jams and simply hand tail and use the cam cleat. As we said earlier, you do not haul in with the line in the jaws, and often it is faster and easier to haul and then just drop it into the cam cleat. When it is time to tack, there is one less thing to undo. I probably use the cam cleat 30% of the time for one reason or the other, and nearly all days at some point (for example, before tacking).

This was true on both my cruising cat with a big genoa and now on my F-24.

 

[Supertramp]

You can't use a cam cleat between the winch and the load. That is what jammers are for.

After the winch the cam cleat sees only the hand held, tailing load. Before the winch (between the winch and the load) it will see the full line load, which will break the cam cleat.

I have jammer between the (ST) winch and load. Yes, they work well hauling in but are a nightmare letting out as the rope is unlikely to run free and a twist can block it, especially with thicker ropes. I bypass them if doing much tacking but they get in the way of the rope line to the winch.

I always assumed ST's were designed to take the load and didn't require a cleat or jammer?

 

[BabaYaga]

No, they will NOT be redundant. In fact, my last two boats had cam cleats factory installed after the ST winches.

In gusty conditions a cam cleat is much faster to release and easier to control. In light conditions, it is faster to skip the ST jams and simply hand tail and use the cam cleat. As we said earlier, you do not haul in with the line in the jaws, and often it is faster and easier to haul and then just drop it into the cam cleat. When it is time to tack, there is one less thing to undo. I probably use the cam cleat 30% of the time for one reason or the other, and nearly all days at some point (for example, before tacking).

This was true on both my cruising cat with a big genoa and now on my F-24.

You may well be right, if I go ST, I will soon find out.
I guess much depends on the layout of the cockpit, design of coamings etc.
I will not do away with the jamming cleats until I find out whether they are still useful or not.
This photo gives an idea of my cockpit layout and winch 'shelfs', taken on a broad reach in light conditions (where ST winches would not bring any special benefit, of course).

 

[zoidberg]

You can't use a cam cleat between the winch and the load. That is what jammers are for.

You've reminded me I have four of these.....

....gathering dust somewhere.