Fresh water filtering and softening - suggestions

MapisM

MapisM

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Apologies if the subject has already been done in the past.
Actually, that's what I expected, but neither I remember a specific debate nor I could found anything, with a brief search.

A simple issue, really: I'm considering the installation of a water softener, both for direct supply from the dock and for refilling the tank.
A couple of equipment which I'm aware of, that on paper should be fine for the job, are the following:
http://www.demi5.com/?lang=en
http://boatwatersoftener.com/
Can anyone confirm if they are any good, and/or if there's any better equipment around?
For my needs, small size and portability would be a bonus, but not a must.
I would probably arrange a fixed installation in the lazarette anyway, rather than bothering to take it out and put it on the dock wherever I go...
 
I use a Demi5 for washdowns in Mallorca. It's pretty good, removing about 2/3 of the calc in dock water. You have to change the 5 micron filter and salt canister every 4,000 litres though so probably not practical to use to fill your tanks.
 
Are those parts replacements cumbersome/expensive?
If I'll fit a water softener, I definitely want to use it also for tank refilling...
 
MapisM said:
Are those parts replacements cumbersome/expensive?
If I'll fit a water softener, I definitely want to use it also for tank refilling...
Click to expand...

The 5 micron filter is cheap but the salt canister is about €40 unless you buy a 20KG bag of salt granules.
 
By "salt canister", do you mean that the unit takes a specific salt refill of some kind?
I normally feed the water softener that I have at home with a 20kg bag of salt granules (which sells for 5 Eur or so) every couple of months...
 
I've had one of the spot free water softeners from boatwatersoftener.com for a few years mainly for wash downs as the water is very hard in my area and its not that good and still get a lot of water marks and so have been looking at alternatives one of which is the Demi 5 so am interested to read Magnums thoughts on it.
 
I too have been looking for something. I wander past the larger section of boats in BSM and see a shore to ship set up of two large blue filters in the fresh water hose. The demi5 at €1200 is a bit much for me. I can buy lots of bottled water for that
 
Hi P, are you sure you need a water softener ?
ofcause it depends a lot of the tap water quality in your main cruising area / homeberth,

fe I know for sure that in most of Croatia, the water quality is really good, and the same in Montenegro.
I don't know yet for sure in Mainland Italy, (south)
but in most Marina's we visited, water is potable, and not particularly much calc (AFAIK)
at least we have no problems with the systems onboard, (washing machine and dishwasher,..)
and no bad taste
 
BartW said:
Hi P, are you sure you need a water softener ?
Click to expand...
Well, "need" is a strong world, B. After all, we don't really need a boat, do we...? :rolleyes:
That said, maybe it's because we are used to softened water at home, but both myself and S can feel the difference wherever we go, Croatia included - though I agree that some places are better than other, and btw CF is not among the best, in this respect.
Our personal acid test for water quality is when washing hairs, which are left much ...ermm... softer, when washed with softened water.
But quite often, we can feel the difference also with laundry.
Besides, it's obviously nice to avoid calcium deposits anywhere in the onboard fresh water circuit, in the long term.

Bad taste, if any, is another story. I believe that neither filters nor softeners can do anything for that.
As well as they can't (in reply to Deleted User question) make potable the water if it isn't, afaik.
It takes a purifier for that purpose, but that is a different equipment altogether, based on reverse osmosis.
Personally, we just don't drink water from the onboard circuit, neither when directly connected to the dock (hence always freshly supplied) nor when stored in the tank.
We just use bottled water (a little), and wine, beer, etc. (preferably)! :cool:
 
With the Demi5 - I am assuming it is a single tank, so if you're washing the boat down and it needs to regenerate, does it do it automatically and make you stop cleaning whilst it goes through its regen cycle, or do you regen manually (with the downside of potentially using non-softened water of the resin bed is exhausted mid wash)?

For use on the boat you will probably have room to install a twin-tank non-electric softener that takes block salt (easy to store on the boat) that could be installed after the pump, so the water gets softened on its way to the taps. That won't help with washing the boat, but you'll have lovely soft hair, and a cleaner shower screen!
 
Salt spray is your biggest problem in the Med .Washing that off after a wet n windy cruise needs plenty of dock water .
It’s made worse the rincing in the sun and heat .
Can,t really see how a water softener can bring much to the party as Mark C above infers 20-40L vol for the hull and superstructure is just not enough .
.More so if you have a disproportionate area of glass , which need a sqweegie anyhow before drying to eliminate any marks .Don,t ask how I know that :)
As far as laundry and soft hair —-
Hair the salt from the sea turns it blond - so why would you want to negate that ?
Laundry - use marina facilities or other hard standing if you have property . Ever heard of “ Calgon “:?

Drinking — well over millions of years of evolution can,t you trust your kidneys ? And to some extent your liver ?
I mean just reflect a moment about the other stuff ,solid n liquid you ingest . Anybody taking any Meds or supplements , regular booze , or even other none alcohol processed drinks like tea or coffee ,then this water softener is a joke in grand scheme , from a health POV .
Take tea for example it’s got two thousand parts per million of Flouride , yup F - , and you guys are going to great lengths to eliminate a tiny bit a few hundred parts per million of calcium .Calcium a waaaaay much bio friendly element .

Are you mad ? Lowering your Calcium intake = Looking for degenerative neurological disorders as you grow old ??

So what’s the reason , the real scientific reason ?

Regarding pathogenic micro organisms, temperature of the water is your enemy ,
Add a proprietary bug killer as reccomend to the tank and be done .Simples
Don,t connect your boat to the dock via a shore side connection .Warm water ( body temp circa 37 degrees ) is ideal breading ground for legionella, amongst other nasties - nice .
Plus you ( all the other connected boats ) have potentially linked tanks n bugs — agian Nice if a neighbours in the chain has already got a pathogenic contamination .

No paper filter permanently conected to the dock can stop all the potentially pathogenic micro organisms , that you have deliberately dicided to link up to .
 
Last edited:
Portofino said:
Mark C above infers 20-40L
Click to expand...
I don't think he did, actually.
His point was that if the unit starts the regeneration automatically while you are washing the boat, you must wait for the process to complete.
Fwiw, I believe that in the Demi5 the regen is manual, and if so that would address his concern, but I'm not positive about it.
Anyway, the water quantity that can be treated between each regeneration is bound to be MUCH higher than 20/40L, which would be beyond a joke.
Magnum mentioned 4000L - not sure if that's correct, but sounds more sensible for good.

Ref. drinking and dock connection, I'm confused:
On one hand, million of years of evolution should allow me to drink anything, and OTOH I've been risking legionella during decades of dock connection for fresh water... :confused:
 
MapisM said:
I don't think he did, actually.
His point was that if the unit starts the regeneration automatically while you are washing the boat, you must wait for the process to complete.
Fwiw, I believe that in the Demi5 the regen is manual, and if so that would address his concern, but I'm not positive about it.
Anyway, the water quantity that can be treated between each regeneration is bound to be MUCH higher than 20/40L, which would be beyond a joke.
Magnum mentioned 4000L - not sure if that's correct, but sounds more sensible for good.

Ref. drinking and dock connection, I'm confused:
On one hand, million of years of evolution should allow me to drink anything, and OTOH I've been risking legionella during decades of dock connection for fresh water... :confused:
Click to expand...

So, to clarify what I meant. Firstly the resin bed will give much more than 40l between regenerations, but if you are in the middle of washing the boat and it starts to regenerate, I would assume that the water from the mains is fed straight through the system, bypassing the resin bed, hence you would be washing the boat in non-softened water. OTOH, if the regeneration is manual, then you could do it when not cleaning, but there is the potential to waste a lot of salt if the regen is not required.

What you could to is use a take off from your softened domestic system to wash the boat, and if you have a twin tank, it just switches to the other tank during regeneration so you get softened water all the time.

On the other points about the health of the water, a water softener does not filter or purify the water in any way, ion exchange just removes the calcium. Softened water is perfectly drinkable but is not recommended for people on a ultra low sodium diet. If you want to purify the water on board, the best way is a reverse osmosis system which negates the need for filters, etc.

I also wouldn't have a dock connection unless I was using the boat all the time for the potential of legionella - the risk is inhaling infected atomised water in the shower.
 
markc said:
I also wouldn't have a dock connection unless I was using the boat all the time for the potential of legionella - the risk is inhaling infected atomised water in the shower.
Click to expand...
I half recall that PF raised this fear of legionella already in the past, but aside from having never heard of any sort of troubles from several boating mates (some of which adapted their onboard circuit based on my suggestions) who use regularly the direct connection, I still struggle to understand why there should be a major difference between the supply on demand, so to speak, and the use of the very same water to fill the onboard tank... :confused:
Unless everybody put disinfectants in their tank upon every refill, but I believe that's rather the exception than the norm, in real world.
 
MapisM said:
I half recall that PF raised this fear of legionella already in the past, but aside from having never heard of any sort of troubles from several boating mates (some of which adapted their onboard circuit based on my suggestions) who use regularly the direct connection, I still struggle to understand why there should be a major difference between the supply on demand, so to speak, and the use of the very same water to fill the onboard tank... :confused:
Unless everybody put disinfectants in their tank upon every refill, but I believe that's rather the exception than the norm, in real world.
Click to expand...

I think the difference is that when I fill my tanks, I allow any standing water in the hose to run out before it goes anywhere near my tanks. That's not really possible with a fixed connection i.e. any nasties in the pipe end up on your boat.
 
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