French seller doesn't have all the paperwork...

[roddie]

Hi. We are thinking of buying a boat in the St Tropez area. I enquired of the owner for the list of paperwork that YYA recommended. He says he doesn't have the VAT receipt and I'm not sure what he considers ownership docs. The boat is 2003 and he has had it since July 2011.

We plan to register it SSR after. That seemed simple enough but maybe not so much now....

Ward-McKenzie have a service whereby they help with stuff like this, but if the paperwork doesn't exist it doesn't exist I guess so W-M probably can't 'source' it either? What to do? Sellers reply below.

We want the boat mostly as we want the berth and its the kind of boat we were going to buy in the UK anyway. Sold together.

If we convert to SSR we still need these docs?


Pour les papiers j'ai le certificat de navigation seul document nécessaire en france, avec les anciens propriétaires inscrits et le droit de navigation payé chaque année. J'ai toutes les factures depuis je crois 2009 et le contrat signé pour la place de port ainsi que le livret du bateau et du moteur Steyr. Par contre je n'ai rien concernant la TVA lors de l'achat initial. Concernant l'absence d'hypotheque, je me renseignerai pour savoir s'il existe un document officiel

 

[sailorman]

you could register a matchbox under the ssr.
the ssr proves nothing at all.
you will need the docs for resale

 

[roddie]

you could register a matchbox under the ssr.
the ssr proves nothing at all.
you will need the docs for resale

Thanks. After a bit of research I get that the SSR is basic, but as you say, the resale matters. More than that, what I meant was if I have SSR will the customs/dounes still look for the original French paperwork. ..

 

[Ric]

Hi. We are thinking of buying a boat in the St Tropez area. I enquired of the owner for the list of paperwork that YYA recommended. He says he doesn't have the VAT receipt and I'm not sure what he considers ownership docs. The boat is 2003 and he has had it since July 2011.

We plan to register it SSR after. That seemed simple enough but maybe not so much now....

Ward-McKenzie have a service whereby they help with stuff like this, but if the paperwork doesn't exist it doesn't exist I guess so W-M probably can't 'source' it either? What to do? Sellers reply below.

We want the boat mostly as we want the berth and its the kind of boat we were going to buy in the UK anyway. Sold together.

If we convert to SSR we still need these docs?


Pour les papiers j'ai le certificat de navigation seul document nécessaire en france, avec les anciens propriétaires inscrits et le droit de navigation payé chaque année. J'ai toutes les factures depuis je crois 2009 et le contrat signé pour la place de port ainsi que le livret du bateau et du moteur Steyr. Par contre je n'ai rien concernant la TVA lors de l'achat initial. Concernant l'absence d'hypotheque, je me renseignerai pour savoir s'il existe un document officiel

What the seller is writing is correct - there is no VAT certificate in France because the boat cannot be put on the register unless the VAT is paid. You only need to concern yourself with the possibility that there may be an outstanding mortgage "hypotheque".

 

[Tranona]

Unlikely that the french customs will be interested in the paperwork other than SSR and insurance. However, there is always a chance they may want to see the VAT receipt and if it does not exist demand VAT. Usually if it is a boat bought in England and you have a Bill of Sale to prove it, they are unlikely to take action as the VAT is the responsibility of UK HMRC. But if you buy it in France then VAT issues are French responsibility. If the boat is french owned and registered then the VAT payment on the original sale should be noted, even if the receipt does not exist.

There are two things to consider - legal title through record of bill of Sale and VAT documentation to show there is no potential tax liability. Without the first walk away, without the second, recognise there is potential risk.

 

[RogerMayne]

Thanks. After a bit of research I get that the SSR is basic, but as you say, the resale matters. More than that, what I meant was if I have SSR will the customs/dounes still look for the original French paperwork. ..

Sounds like a can of worms that you don't need to open to me.

 

[tjbrace]

We bought our boat through Snip at Ouistreham. it was French registered and a used boat that had been taken in part exchange. Roland, who owns Snip, looked after the French deregistration and provided several copies of certificates that stated the 'tax paid' status. I have had to show this document occasionally to customs when visiting France. I never saw original VAT (IVA) receipts for the boat.

 

[roddie]

Thanks everyone. Prefer not to walk away if we can find a solution. I had heard French boats could only be registered if vat paid, but then if we de french it that might confuse matters.

 

[roddie]

Also, even if I am satisfied it's vat paid, won't I still be asked for an original vat receipt by douanes.... Also what if we then go to Spain or Italy etc in it...?

 

[Tranona]

Also, even if I am satisfied it's vat paid, won't I still be asked for an original vat receipt by douanes.... Also what if we then go to Spain or Italy etc in it...?

In practice you are unlikely to be asked for VAT proof in those countries, particularly if it is UK registered. Many boats do not have VAT evidence, particularly from UK where until recently everybody was very relaxed about it. While customs have extensive powers to stop etc they are more likely to do that with the type of boat where tax avoidance is most advantageous - new expensive boats or boats that come from outside the EU. A small older, lower value boat is not of much interest.

 

[roddie]

Thanks. I had hoped that but have read quite a bit on here the last few days that a lot of fines were just kind of ' because they can' and it's a weird situation to be in, in that if we do get fined we just have to lump it as we can't sort it....
Thanks for the help everyone

 

[Joker]

I was boarded by the Dutch customs in Oost Vlieland, who wanted to see my papers. I had a copy of the original Bill of Sale scanned onto my computer, and they were happy with that. The Bill of Sale showed the name of the UK agent through whom I bought the boat, and also his VAT registration number.
This did not satisfy the Dutch customs. They are demanding to see a copy of the original invoice showing the amount of VAT paid. After eight years, I doubt that I can find this.
I'm still at a loss to know what it is to do with the Dutch customs. The bought scratch that the boat was bought in the UK, and I would have thought that the only people who might be interested in its tax status would be the British customs. I also asked whether, if I were to my car through their country, I would be stopped and asked for proof that I have paid VAT on that car. I never got an answer to that one.

 

[westernman]

The french 'certificat de navigation' is proof the boat is VAT paid.

It is an official document from a government agency and is as bullet proof a proof you can get - much more so than an original invoice showing the VAT on it.

 

[roddie]

The french 'certificat de navigation' is proof the boat is VAT paid.

It is an official document from a government agency and is as bullet proof a proof you can get - much more so than an original invoice showing the VAT on it.

so do you think its ok to 'mix and match' ie if we go SSR we will be producing some British paperwork (insurance, ICC etc) and a previous owners French 'cert de navigation' ...?

 

[westernman]

so do you think its ok to 'mix and match' ie if we go SSR we will be producing some British paperwork (insurance, ICC etc) and a previous owners French 'cert de navigation' ...?

I think so - but I am no expert.

A previous owners invoice does not really prove anything anyway (many ways that the boat could have become VAT 'unpaid' in the interim).

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

To me, the inference of posts #7 and #13 are that the French de-registration certificate is proof of VAT payment. Where are you going to sail? If you are solely sailing within UK waters it's not going to matter. If you sail to Ireland nobody will be interested in your VAT status and if you go to France they will understand their own paperwork. If the boat is right I'd go for it.

 

[Tranona]

I think so - but I am no expert.

A previous owners invoice does not really prove anything anyway (many ways that the boat could have become VAT 'unpaid' in the interim).

The whole issue of what is "proof" is a nightmare. In the UK where VAT on boats long predates 1992 and "free movement" evidence of payment was a non issue. Post 1992 many other states where such things are considered more important and particularly where boats have a separate legal identity that is registered, certificates were issued to confirm VAT was paid or the boat was exempt so there was an independent record of VAT payment.

So the UK approach has always been that the only acceptable evidence is the original commercial invoice (or customs receipt if directly imported), but of course for many boats this gets lost so there is no independent record. Really not a problem in UK but other states have a more pedantic approach as in theory lack of evidence could result in a demand for VAT in that state. In reality it rarely results in any action but some customs people - Dutch for example, seem to enjoy making life difficult.

There are of course legitimate reasons why customs might investigate potential VAT offences as the sums involved can be very large, meaning the temptation for some to act illegally (or potentially) is great. Ask Flavio Briatore about his spat with Italian customs over "his" boat to get an idea of how difficult they can be.

Fortunately most of these problems have little impact on "ordinary" people, but it is best to avoid if at all possible and just live with the ambiguity.

 

[roddie]

Just been onto the RYA legal department and the French Dounes in Toulon and they don't seem to think there are any VAT paperwork potential problems at all....

 

[Concerto]

Problem solved, I feel. So proceed and purchase the boat.

 

[sailaboutvic]

To me, the inference of posts #7 and #13 are that the French de-registration certificate is proof of VAT payment. Where are you going to sail? If you are solely sailing within UK waters it's not going to matter. If you sail to Ireland nobody will be interested in your VAT status and if you go to France they will understand their own paperwork. If the boat is right I'd go for it.

I think there a bit more of an issues then just that , if and when the time come to sell the boat if he not got prove of VAT has been paid then he will have a problem finding a buyer , unless it a very cheap boats , I am guess it not .
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