Stemar
Well-Known Member
I agree. Most disasters start with a stupid incident. Far better for the LB to tow you in ignominiously after that incident than to be scared of the recovery fee and have them looking for bodies.
French Lifeboat tows.
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
The USCG never tow. They save life, and if you don't arrange a commercial tow and they deem your vessel a hazard they sink it, by gunfire if necessary. Time to retrofit RNLI lifeboats with something from Bofors?
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Is there evidence from France that that happens?
Mudisox
Well-Known Member
If the RNLI give free towage there is no incentive for a separate service to develop to fufill the need.
Some years ago I went out of my way to respond to a Ch 16 call and offer fuel to someone 15 miles out of Poole who had run out of fuel, returning from France. 2 hours wasted by me and as he refused to offer any payment for the 20l of diesel that I had available.
Flat calm, no danger, so left him there I am afraid, .... I called it giving him experience. No loss of life as a fishing boat offered a tow in, for £100 fee!
Some years ago I went out of my way to respond to a Ch 16 call and offer fuel to someone 15 miles out of Poole who had run out of fuel, returning from France. 2 hours wasted by me and as he refused to offer any payment for the 20l of diesel that I had available.
Flat calm, no danger, so left him there I am afraid, .... I called it giving him experience. No loss of life as a fishing boat offered a tow in, for £100 fee!
C08
Well-Known Member
While you cannot defend skipping to avoid a bill, that is a lot of money and in the past that would have been an impossible amount for me to pay. Yes I had a boat I ran on a shoestring but was always skint due to a substantial mortgage and school fees I could not really afford. I wonder if the french lifeboat advised the skipper of the extent of the charges to give him the option of making other arrangements?
PilotWolf
Well-Known Member
Agreee not seen the USCG towing anything. Baywatch, yes we including us once but we were in danger of ending up on the rocks with 100 + kids on board.
W
Laminar Flow
Well-Known Member
I think it is perfectly legit for the Sauveteur to charge for towing, particularly when there was no risk to life. It behooves the "pleasure" craft operator to carry insurance to cover such an event if he cannot afford the bill.
All those who go out, and at times in terrifying conditions, deserve to have the services, which they mostly volunteer for by the way, respected and supported and especially by those who require the help, whether through bad luck, inexperience or more often than not, sheer stupidity.
In the same vein, and as an ex mountain rescue, all those fools who need to go snow boarding out of bounds should also be sent a nice big bill for when they get stuck or lost and half the world has to go looking for them.
Edit: fixed spelling
All those who go out, and at times in terrifying conditions, deserve to have the services, which they mostly volunteer for by the way, respected and supported and especially by those who require the help, whether through bad luck, inexperience or more often than not, sheer stupidity.
In the same vein, and as an ex mountain rescue, all those fools who need to go snow boarding out of bounds should also be sent a nice big bill for when they get stuck or lost and half the world has to go looking for them.
Edit: fixed spelling
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Stemar
Well-Known Member
While I have a lot of sympathy for that PoV, when I worked for an ambulance service, we had this debate about abusers of the service. The conclusion was that most of the muppets don't have assets, so wouldn't end up paying, and it's likely to put off those who really need and deserve it until it's too late. Would you rather go up a mountain to walk a muppet down or wait till next day to collect his body? What do you do when it isn't Muppet who calls, but his girlfriend because he's late at the pub?
Frogmogman
Well-Known Member
I'm with laminar flow on this one. Certainly in the French Alps, a skier or boarder who is rescued off piste gets charged at least double the fee for an on piste rescue. A helicopter rescue on piste costs about €2K, and will be covered by your insurance. Hors piste will be more like €4K, and if you were unaccompanied by a guide, you'll probably have to fight your insurer to get a pay out. The argument is one about taking personal responsibility for yourself.
I don't see that drawing a parallel between yachtsmen and winter sports enthusiasts and penniless abusers of the ambulance service is particularly relevant. Why should the lifeboat provide a free towing service ? Did you ever get your broken down car towed off a motorway for nothing ? You either take out insurance in the form of the AA/RAC, or you pay.
I don't see that drawing a parallel between yachtsmen and winter sports enthusiasts and penniless abusers of the ambulance service is particularly relevant. Why should the lifeboat provide a free towing service ? Did you ever get your broken down car towed off a motorway for nothing ? You either take out insurance in the form of the AA/RAC, or you pay.
Stemar
Well-Known Member
To quote several lifeboat crew, "We'd rather tow a yacht in and have everyone go home safely than have to go out in worse conditions to look for bodies."
Frogmogman
Well-Known Member
As Jumble Duck asked in an earlier post, is there any evidence that seafarers in danger in France don't call the CROSS for fear of a bill ? Certainly not that I'm aware of.
Graham376
Well-Known Member
Yes. We heard a VHF call near the Raz one day, UK yacht asking for any UK boat to give them a tow. Cross advised they could arrange tow and it was (not very politely) refused. We were considering turning back to assist when a closer boat helped them.
Robin
Well-Known Member
Is ther any evidence that everyone does?
Remember Penlee Lifeboat that was lost trying to save the coaster on the rocks where it's owners were reluctant to summon a tug sooner? Still brings tears to my eyes.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
The solution to that wasn't to make the tow free, but to give the coastguard legal authority to order that a tow be taken.
Robin
Well-Known Member
in our case in the Raz CROSS called in a trawler nearby, fairy nuff but having towed us out of immediate danger the trawler then negotiated a handover to SNSM lifeboat without saying a single word to us, at that stage we could have just sat and waited for wind to arrive. As it was ,the LB turned up and transferred the tow to them which they were much better equipped to do than was the deep sea trawler. but at that stage there was no risk to life, so we were billed. WE did not run off, the bill arrived a month or so later and we paid without argument.
penberth3
Well-Known Member
You've got the details wrong there, but the point remains about calling for help early.
Robin
Well-Known Member
The MV Union Star was launched in Ringkøbing in Denmark just a few days before it was wrecked on the Cornish coast. A mini-bulk carrier registered in Dublin, Ireland, it sailed to IJmuiden in the Netherlands to collect a cargo of fertiliser for its maiden voyage to Arklow in Ireland.[1] It was carrying a crew of five: Captain Henry Morton;[2] Mate James Whittaker, Engineer George Sedgwick, Crewman Anghostino Verressimo, and Crewman Manuel Lopes.[3] Also on board was the captain's family (his wife Dawn with teenage stepdaughters Sharon and Deanne) who had been picked up at an unauthorised call at Brightlingsea in Essex.[2][3]
Near the south coast of Cornwall, 8 miles (13 km) east of the Wolf Rock, the new ship's engines failed.[1] The crew was unable to restart them but did not make a mayday call.[2] Assistance was offered by a tug, the Noord Holland, under the Lloyd's Open Form salvage contract but Morton initially refused the offer, later accepting after consulting his owners.[4] Winds were gusting at up to 90 knots (100 mph; 170 km/h) – hurricane, force 12 on the Beaufort scale – with waves up to 60 feet (18 m) high.[5] The powerless ship was blown across Mount's Bay towards the rocks of Boscawen Cove, near Lamorna.
Laminar Flow
Well-Known Member
There is a distinct difference between saving lives and the salvage of assets.
On the aside, our ambulance service will send you a bill, whether the call was frivolous or not. Its not likely going to bankrupt you, but its enough to give you pause and perhaps consider a cab instead.
NPMR
Well-Known Member
10+ years ago, we arrived at a port in France, at 03.00hrs, having sailed there, only to find that we'd no battery to start engine and then lights failed etc. Using telephone, asked marina if they had anyone who could tow us the last couple of miles into the marina.
Very promptly, an SNSF rib arrived and we were efficiently taken and stowed in the marina. We joked that the guys were very cheerful, for such an early call out but decided they were happy as they were deciding what model of merc they could now afford, once their bill was worked out.
3 days later, when we had to leave, having sorted battery woes etc, and having chased and chased the bill, we left, with everyone knowing our address and names etc.
Nothing was ever heard from them.
We tried hard to pay but it proved impossible to find out the cost.
Very promptly, an SNSF rib arrived and we were efficiently taken and stowed in the marina. We joked that the guys were very cheerful, for such an early call out but decided they were happy as they were deciding what model of merc they could now afford, once their bill was worked out.
3 days later, when we had to leave, having sorted battery woes etc, and having chased and chased the bill, we left, with everyone knowing our address and names etc.
Nothing was ever heard from them.
We tried hard to pay but it proved impossible to find out the cost.
PilotWolf
Well-Known Member
I've never heard of ambulance services in the UK sending bills. I think all crews have the same discussion about the frequent fliers! Hospitals will send a bill for car accident treatment but the imsurance paid it - may be different now
Pretty sure if the Union Star had taken the tow when first offered thing may have been different The silence of no reply to Falmouth haunts me to this day and also reduces me to tears
I've assisted numerous boats over the years, some very greatful and some just felt entitled. The smallest of assistance has warranted gifts way beyond what was reasonable. Other 'assistances' have resulted in complaints because I wouldn't put their boat almost twice our size where they wanted in a gale of wind, instead putting it on the nearest safe pontoon - didn't even get a thank you.
I have issues with the RNLI and the way they work at corporate level and feel they let the crews down. But I do think they should go back to their core role of rescuing people in trouble, stop sending £ overseas, stop the lifeguard stuff, put that money into educating boaters both leisure and commercial.
And if you do get a tow a bottle of wine or rum, etc. is appreciated by most. If it's the RNLI then make a donation! And unless it's changed specify that it's for that particular station or it ends up in the central pot.
W.
Pretty sure if the Union Star had taken the tow when first offered thing may have been different The silence of no reply to Falmouth haunts me to this day and also reduces me to tears
I've assisted numerous boats over the years, some very greatful and some just felt entitled. The smallest of assistance has warranted gifts way beyond what was reasonable. Other 'assistances' have resulted in complaints because I wouldn't put their boat almost twice our size where they wanted in a gale of wind, instead putting it on the nearest safe pontoon - didn't even get a thank you.
I have issues with the RNLI and the way they work at corporate level and feel they let the crews down. But I do think they should go back to their core role of rescuing people in trouble, stop sending £ overseas, stop the lifeguard stuff, put that money into educating boaters both leisure and commercial.
And if you do get a tow a bottle of wine or rum, etc. is appreciated by most. If it's the RNLI then make a donation! And unless it's changed specify that it's for that particular station or it ends up in the central pot.
W.