Free navigation charts!

[bg9208]

The NOAA in the USA provide free coastal navigation charts, taking the view that since the production of data for these charts was funded by taxpayers money, they should be open to public use. It seems a shame that there is not a vociferous lobby in the UK to demand that Admiralty chart information should be in the public domain. The Americans grasped the nettle of "freedom of information" and the UK pays lip service to a watered down form. Why do we have to pay hundreds of pounds for paper or software charts when we have already paid for their introduction. It is just as well that the USA owns GPS satellites otherwise we should all be paying a huge tax on our satnav usage.
Sorry about the rant but there are free open source navigation programmes available so I see no reason that we should not have open source map data. The only light on the horizon for yachtsmen seems to be Google Earth/Maps which could well expand into the replacement for all this charting software, There is already an open source worldwide coastal navigation programme in existance based on Google Maps which may be the way forward.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The NOAA in the USA provide free coastal navigation charts, taking the view that since the production of data for these charts was funded by taxpayers money, they should be open to public use. It seems a shame that there is not a vociferous lobby in the UK to demand that Admiralty chart information should be in the public domain. The Americans grasped the nettle of "freedom of information" and the UK pays lip service to a watered down form. Why do we have to pay hundreds of pounds for paper or software charts when we have already paid for their introduction. It is just as well that the USA owns GPS satellites otherwise we should all be paying a huge tax on our satnav usage.
Sorry about the rant but there are free open source navigation programmes available so I see no reason that we should not have open source map data. The only light on the horizon for yachtsmen seems to be Google Earth/Maps which could well expand into the replacement for all this charting software, There is already an open source worldwide coastal navigation programme in existance based on Google Maps which may be the way forward.

Basically because your taxes will go up if you want these things for free. Since when was the data collected for free - and why should it be given away?

Furthermore the US Charts might be 'free' but the data on them is often rather more suspect than the UKHO would ever allow near their charting.

I used to work with the people who collect data for UKHO and this perennial chestnut is often bandied about.

UKHO is tasked to make a profit. Lobby your MP if you want to change things, but I am happy that UKHO (whilst not being 'free') is also regarded as the premier source/supplier/collector of hydrographic data in the world.

 

[idpnd]

The data is not gathered free, it's gathered at the taxpayers' expense and then sold back to them by commercial entities!

I hear the bankrupt UK gov is considering privatisation of the met as well, sounds like a super idea after the resoundingly successful railway et al privatisation projects..

 

[andygc]

The data is not gathered free, it's gathered at the taxpayers' expense and then sold back to them by commercial entities!

I hear the bankrupt UK gov is considering privatisation of the met as well, sounds like a super idea after the resoundingly successful railway et al privatisation projects..

Although the railways have their problems, if they had still been in the hands of British Rail they would be costing taxpayers far more than they do now. I admire the train services in many European countries, but there are some major differences. European railways are hugely subsidised by taxpayers, and, generally speaking, traffic densities are much lower than on UK main lines. These days, most British trains run on time.

The UKHO produces charts which are used by a minority of taxpayers (ie those who can afford to own boats and who choose to do so) and by commercial shipowners. The charts are maintained through corrections so that they remain reliable and up-to-date. Why should the majority of UK taxpayers subsidise a small minority who can afford to buy charts and provide free navigation information to foreign-owned and flagged ships?

You may have helped to pay for the data underlying the charts, but you don't, as a taxpayer, pay for the conversion of that data to a paper or digital chart, nor for the storage and distribution network. For what they are, Admiralty charts are cheap.

 

[Robin]

Although the railways have their problems, if they had still been in the hands of British Rail they would be costing taxpayers far more than they do now. I admire the train services in many European countries, but there are some major differences. European railways are hugely subsidised by taxpayers, and, generally speaking, traffic densities are much lower than on UK main lines. These days, most British trains run on time.

The UKHO produces charts which are used by a minority of taxpayers (ie those who can afford to own boats and who choose to do so) and by commercial shipowners. The charts are maintained through corrections so that they remain reliable and up-to-date. Why should the majority of UK taxpayers subsidise a small minority who can afford to buy charts and provide free navigation information to foreign-owned and flagged ships?

You may have helped to pay for the data underlying the charts, but you don't, as a taxpayer, pay for the conversion of that data to a paper or digital chart, nor for the storage and distribution network. For what they are, Admiralty charts are cheap.

So why then does the USA see things differently?

I have a full set of charts for the Chesapeake area of the USA already downloaded free as that is to be our new liveaboard home. Should I wish to obtain paper copies then they are available at a cost to cover printing and delivery.

All that the USA have done is to open up their database, it costs them no more to do that as they had to have the data anyway for their own purposes.

As far as accuracy of data is concerned, I'm certainly not qualified to comment but then I do doubt that the USA hydrographers would accept that they are inferior, just as I doubt that the US Navy subs and carriers are using UKHO charts because they are better.

 

[Edwin]

Basically because your taxes will go up if you want these things for free. Since when was the data collected for free - and why should it be given away?.

Because most of this basic material was collected since before the days of Nelson.. The vast majority of the 'updated' material is useful for very large merchant ships and totally useless for yachts...

Furthermore the US Charts might be 'free' but the data on them is often rather more suspect than the UKHO would ever allow near their charting.

Are you trying to say that the greatest and certainly the biggest navy in the world is using ng charts.... NOAA are not fools and in fact are the premier collector of information for charts because of their satellite images.

UKHO is tasked to make a profit. Lobby your MP if you want to change things, but I am happy that UKHO (whilst not being 'free') is also regarded as the premier source/supplier/collector of hydrographic data in the world.

The UKHO chart service is very self serving - it copyrights charts from all over the world despite the fact their contribution is often very very minimal. Clearly any government does not want to subsidise charts but why on earth we should all be obliged to pay a load of 'fat cats' in a pretty useless government department is beyond me.. They need to supply charts for the RN et al so we are all paying ludicrous prices for something that is free (except for printing costs) in the US and many other countries.
Nothing wrong with US Navy carts at 4$ from Tides End - Bellingdon and I only use their products no other connection,

 

[Fire99]

Although the railways have their problems, if they had still been in the hands of British Rail they would be costing taxpayers far more than they do now. I admire the train services in many European countries, but there are some major differences. European railways are hugely subsidised by taxpayers, and, generally speaking, traffic densities are much lower than on UK main lines. These days, most British trains run on time.

I couldn't disagree more on this one.
There is no doubt BR was run to very poor standards but privatisation and free reign for the private companies to virtually pick their own prices was not the answer. For example. 40min return trip on train for boat show. £23!!!!!

I've experienced public transport in many european countries and believe me, its all about management and effective use of money.

Back on topic. The UK are renowned for charging you and then charging you again. Generally we get our backsides smacked because of our Apathetic belief that "it is the way it is and will never be better".

 

[andygc]

So why then does the USA see things differently?

Because it's a different country with different priorities. For example, they spend tax dollars on giving people free charts while leaving 15% of their population without adequate medical care. If you want free charts in the UK, then you will have to pay some other way for the UKHO. The UKHO isn't a private company with shareholders, it belongs to the MOD. Processing its chart data (a lot of which was not collected "since before the days of Nelson") requires people and computers - and a lot of them. It has high-cost capital equipment - colour printing presses. It has a pick and despatch service that sends charts worldwide at short notice, it has chart correctors still working with stencils, pen and ink.

Giving you free electronic chart data is not costless, it has to be extracted from a master database and packaged to give you the data you want and need. Have you ever seen a full detail electronic chart of the approaches to a major harbour? If most of the depth data was not removed you would find it unusable.

Are you sure that updated material is "totally useless for yachts"? I suggest that you come into the Exe on a 5-year old chart. It's OK, they now have a tractor-launched lifeboat, so they can get to you at any state of the tide - you'll probably need it.

I'm not defending the UKHO as a body as I am sure that there are parts of the organisation that are inefficient, but my point remains that it has to be paid for somehow - so that's pay for your charts, or pay more taxes. I don't see why Joe and Abdul in Bradford who don't get further than the canal should subsidise your or my sailing.

 

[bg9208]

Free charts

The data at any point in time to produce a paper or software chart has been collected with UK taxpayer's money and anyone who downloads a NOAA chart is out of date the next day.
If the UK provided free software charts (I would accept a charge for transferring it to paper), I for one would be happy to pay a nominal fee for updating the software from time to time.
We are in the information age, we should have a right to question what we pay for and should also have right of access to everything that is not security critical and has been paid for by us. Since all taxpayers have been and are underwriting the cost of chart production, the costs will remain the same as charts will still need to be updated. The main difference as far as sailors are concerned is that they end up paying a second time a hefty sum for their charts.
I wonder how many sailors are using up to date charts? I suspect that, given the cost, a small percentage of the total number of boats afloat.
I got lost with the argument about British Rail etc. But from where I stand, we seem to be looking at something more like a unlicensed car clamping scheme.

 

[Edwin]

The UKHO isn't a private company with shareholders, it belongs to the MOD. Processing its chart data (a lot of which was not collected "since before the days of Nelson") requires people and computers - and a lot of them. It has high-cost capital equipment - colour printing presses. It has a pick and dispatch service that sends charts worldwide at short notice, it has chart correctors still working with stencils, pen and ink. .

I really do not want the superb paper and colour reproduction from expensive printers... I have used B&W charts printed on inexpensive paper all over the world without problem. Most of them despite intensive use are still in good condition and well worth $4 but not nearly £20

Giving you free electronic chart data is not costless, it has to be extracted from a master database and packaged to give you the data you want and need. Have you ever seen a full detail electronic chart of the approaches to a major harbour? If most of the depth data was not removed you would find it unusable..

Of course people providing electronic charts would need to pay a 'fee' to obtain an electronic copy... But not a hugh copyright fee. I have used C-map for 15 years and found their information excellent.

Are you sure that updated material is "totally useless for yachts"? I suggest that you come into the Exe on a 5-year old chart. It's OK, they now have a tractor-launched lifeboat, so they can get to you at any state of the tide - you'll probably need it.

If I had the very latest UKHO chart updated from notices 3 days ago then that update is already 10 days out of date. If there were a gale in the last 10 days and the channel had moved following the charted channel could get me into deep trouble, the entrance is well buoyed - as are most entrances - Mark 1 eyeball and echo sounder is better than a 10 day out of date chart,

I'm not defending the UKHO as a body as I am sure that there are parts of the organisation that are inefficient, but my point remains that it has to be paid for somehow - so that's pay for your charts, or pay more taxes. I don't see why Joe and Abdul in Bradford who don't get further than the canal should subsidise your or my sailing.

The freedom of information is all I am arguing for... I am sure there is a big market from the Merchant Navy's and Military Navy's of the world who need the quality paper, inks, dispatch service, notices to mariners etc but more ordinary people should be allowed to purchase this basic information in the form and therefore the price they choose. What we have at the moment is a 'closed shop' unfair trading. I bet there are hundreds or even thousands of people out sailing without the appropriate charts because the cost of owning the full set is prohibitive from this property...

 

[Robin]

Because it's a different country with different priorities. For example, they spend tax dollars on giving people free charts while leaving 15% of their population without adequate medical care. If you want free charts in the UK, then you will have to pay some other way for the UKHO. The UKHO isn't a private company with shareholders, it belongs to the MOD. Processing its chart data (a lot of which was not collected "since before the days of Nelson") requires people and computers - and a lot of them. It has high-cost capital equipment - colour printing presses. It has a pick and despatch service that sends charts worldwide at short notice, it has chart correctors still working with stencils, pen and ink.

The printing presses and despatch service is not a cost that applies to providing an internet download. The USA DOES charge if you want a printed copy and have it mailed.

Giving you free electronic chart data is not costless, it has to be extracted from a master database and packaged to give you the data you want and need. Have you ever seen a full detail electronic chart of the approaches to a major harbour? If most of the depth data was not removed you would find it unusable.

I just said I already have a full set of Chesapeake Bay USA charts in very great detail, downloaded free and I can view them with SeaClear or OpenCPN both free nav programmes. The charts I have are good enough for the US Navy to take their nuclear powered carriers into Norfolk Va with so I think they will be quite adequate for my use.

Are you sure that updated material is "totally useless for yachts"? I suggest that you come into the Exe on a 5-year old chart. It's OK, they now have a tractor-launched lifeboat, so they can get to you at any state of the tide - you'll probably need it.

I didn't say that (someone else's reply) but in the USA case you just download a whole new updated chart, no need to mess arouind!

I'm not defending the UKHO as a body as I am sure that there are parts of the organisation that are inefficient, but my point remains that it has to be paid for somehow - so that's pay for your charts, or pay more taxes. I don't see why Joe and Abdul in Bradford who don't get further than the canal should subsidise your or my sailing.

I'm not knocking the UKHO either, they do a very good job. However that job has to be done for the RN regardless of leisure sailors and the tax payer of course funds it just as we fund the RN, Army and RAF. Opening the electronic database to on line downloads doesn't cost much does it? It is entirely different if you want a printed chart and perfectly reasonable to charge for that. Joe and Abdul in Bradford aren't subsidising anything at all, their tax money like ours goes towards the forces and the UKHO regardless, even if all they have that floats is a toy duck in their bath.

 

[V1701]

I don't see why the raw data, if paid for by the taxpayer, shouldn't be freely available, or for a nominal fee to cover cost of host server or WHY. It does not need to be "packaged". The argument that we have is being paid for by the taxpayer, not by a private company in order to generate a profit...

 

[fergie_mac66]

Furthermore the US Charts might be 'free' but the data on them is often rather more suspect than the UKHO would ever allow near their charting.

I wonder how true that may be with the litigious society that is the usa

If the charts were that bad then there would be hundreds of lawsuits

 

[planteater]

I don't see why the raw data, if paid for by the taxpayer, shouldn't be freely available, or for a nominal fee to cover cost of host server or WHY. It does not need to be "packaged". The argument that we have is being paid for by the taxpayer, not by a private company in order to generate a profit...

I agree. Digital distribution costs are around zero. They could still licence the charts for embedded applications like plotters and have a good little earner on the side.

Access to free/cheap digital charts could kick start some real innovation.

 

[lenseman]

I am sure that the Hydrographic charts will be free in time as HM Ordnance Survey maps of the UK will be free (online) from April this year!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8366190.stm

 

[Wunja]

I am sure that the Hydrographic charts will be free in time as HM Ordnance Survey maps of the UK will be free (online) from April this year!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8366190.stm

Ironically, according to an article in Sailing Today, publishers of almanacs etc. are going to be charged more to use UKHO chartlets in their books in order to pay for the 'free' provision of maps by the OS!

 

[bg9208]

Free charts

Well Lenseman that stopped me in my tracks! Didn't know that OS maps were going to be "Free" to download from April. Can't help wondering what the catch is. After all, if one wants to trace family history, one has to pay a hefty subscription to access UK census records which are theoretically in the public domain and should therefore accessible. They even advertise the service on TV but say nothing about the pricing.
I recently bought a GPS data tracker from from ebay for £34 which provides a track overlay on Google earth on my laptop. I think that the "Open Street Map" which works like Wikipedia with the whole world contributing could well be adapted by the sailing fraternity to provide up to the minute world charts down to "streetlevel" scale or better.

 

[lenseman]

I have the complete set of 204 maps of the 1:50,000 series (Magenta) and many of them, almost ¾ of them, I have TWICE. I have a large number of the 2½ inch 1:25,000 series also

I can only think that as the Ordnance Survey was first envisioned by General Wade et al., against that nasty little Frenchie who wanted to dominate good ol' England.

As the next attempt will possibly be an unmanned airborne assault, and controlled from a gaming console, many thousands of miles away, who wants to know which hill to place a howtzer or cannon?

Hence they are to become FREE !

ps: Further to you bit about genealogy, a hobby in which I avidly partake, I have most of England in the "First Series 1-Inch Ordnance Survey of 1795 - 1820. This is before the railways and are not the cheap David & Charles copper-plate facsimiles which are very difficult to read and interpret due to the planishing and re-planishing of the copper plates.

D & C obtained these copper plates very cheaply as there reproduction quality was very poor. They had been re-planished due to the speed of the roll-out of the British railway system in the early 1800's and were etched and re-etched so they could keep up to date with the new fangled 'iron-horse'. Mine are the original and were published by Harry Margery and are seriously expensive and sadly now out of print!

I also have a large part of Victorian London in the Godfrey Edition with specific selections of various maps covering dates from ~1865 to #1915. These show the social development of London as the railways brought itinerant poor ex 'Ag-Lab' peoples into the metropolis looking for work, usually the East End as this is as far upstream that the Tea Clippers and other 'wind-jammers' could travel due to London Bridge. . . . sorry the last sentence is a bit boaty.

 

[SAWDOC]

All things must pass.....

The data at any point in time to produce a paper or software chart has been collected with UK taxpayer's money and anyone who downloads a NOAA chart is out of date the next day.

My admiralty chart plotter which I purchased from UKHO shop now also tells me at start up that my charts are out of date - its a fact of life nothing to do with the origin or the cost of the charts just like a pc it begins to age from the date of purchase.

 

[bg9208]

Lenseman, thanks for the info. I have lived in France for the past 10 years and I'm on the local council and would like to assure you that our plans for invasion of the UK have been postponed as the British government is doing far more damage than we ever could. So my interest in OS maps has no ulterior motive.