Carmel2
New member
And a Dutch flag seems a convenient and easy way if things starts to get troublesome.
France post Brexit.
- Thread starter Hadenough
- Start date
And a Dutch flag seems a convenient and easy way if things starts to get troublesome.
colind3782
Well-known member
I'll look into it, thanks.
macd
Active member
I fear you may be under a misapprehension. Country of registration is not a major factor in determining whether a private pleasure craft must be VAT-paid in the EU; or whether, alternatively, it is eligible for temporary importation. Neither, come to that, is the nationality of the owner. The rule is that a private craft owned by an EU resident, if kept in the EU, must be VAT-paid. Thus only non-EU residents can claim TI. Flag is largely immaterial.
(Of course wearing any sort of non-EU ensign is often a red...er, flag, to officialdom. But of itself it doesn't necessarily mean very much beyond inviting an added measure of inspection.)
As to UK-owned, VAT-paid vessels already in the (non-UK) EU, I imagine that some sort of interim measures will be introduced to cushion the effect. Indeed, this may even extend to vessels VAT-paid in the UK that have never touched the wider EU. The Union's history is peppered with such 'transitional' measures.
Of course I don't actually know, and nor does anyone else from May and Merkel down. It's certainly prudent to plan for a worst-case scenario, but it isn't necessarily going to work out that way. And, despite the woeful history of their registry, you're lucky to have an Irish passport.
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Tranona
Well-known member
Your position is not unique and it is almost certain that there will be some loss of freedom and rights in respect of movement throughout the EU particularly for those who live on their boat or keep a boat in the EU.
However that will only affect a small number of people compared with the UK population as a whole. They are subset of those who have benefitted from EU membership in a specific way and therefore tend to have voted remain. This has often been expressed here when this subject has come up, and as we have seen earlier in this thread some cannot understand why a majority of voters voted differently from them.
To understand this you have to look at the lived experience of others in respect of the EU, particularly those in the areas that had the highest out vote. They have seen their productive assets closed and often moved to the low cost areas of the "new" EU or industries decimated like the fishing industry as a result of EU policies. Then they find themselves competing for jobs with a wave of migrants, competing for housing, school places, healthcare, finding their children in classes where a significant number of pupils cannot speak English to the level required for their studies etc. You can't blame the migrants, many of them are coming from countries whose economies have been destroyed by the EU and the Euro, with unemployment rates of 20% or more. Contrast the UK with labour shortages, and the fastest growing economy in the EU and migration becomes very attractive.
The people who it is suggested made the difference to the vote have no intention of moving to another country, no expectation of ever being able to afford to own a boat in Europe, or retire there. On top of that they have been abandoned by the political party that claims to represent them. So the referendum represented a perfect opportunity to make their vote count and why not only did turnouts increase dramatically, but they voted for what they saw as their own interests.
Personally I hope that any new agreement will retain much of those freedoms - at least for those who are already committed to a life in Europe. Not sure much will be achieved, even though individual countries like Portugal, Spain and Greece rely so much on British tourism and related activities. As we have seen Brussels seems not to care about individual states requirements, and maybe our negotiators may see this issue as unimportant. Signs, though are good because of the insistence on reciprocal agreements on status of EU citizens here and UK ones in Europe. Hopefully that will be resolved amicably early on and provide a sound basis for other agreements in relation to movement and residence for the future.
Sorry if I strayed a bit from your specific point, but it is inevitable that there are going to be winners and losers with such a major change - just different ones.
GrahamM376
New member
It seems the various states including Spain aren't interested in length of stay for VAT paid boats, just people so, as the boat is already VAT paid within the EU and presumably will remain so, that shouldn't be a problem and as you only spend 25% of your time there, you personally should be within the non-resident time limit.
colind3782
Well-known member
Fingers crossed! The boat is VAT paid in the EU as it was on the Spanish register Lista 7 when I bought it so that shouldn't be an issue. I just want to be able to leave it there.
Garry & June 'Friendship'
Member
Has it not already been proposed by certain EU politicians that UK nationals living and travelling throughout the EU will be able to apply for a dual UK/EU type citizenship...(yes I know the EU is not a nation in itself so therefore you cannot be a EU citizen as such) but it will probably be a glorified visa of some type....surely this is the simplest way for us to continue as we are now if this is approved which early indications show will probably be the case.
macd
Active member
Yes, and the proposer was instantly shot down by several other EU politicians.
By my readings "early indications" show no such thing. Indeed, if they show anything it's that UK citizens as a whole will retain free movement only on a reciprocal basis, which seems to me to be fair enough.
maxi77
Active member
That is because once VAT has been paid they cannot collect it again, hence the lack of interest, of course if it is not VAT paid there is an opportunity to collect that tax. Depending on quite how the negotiations turn out UK boats without proof of VAT paid status may come in for some attention again
GrahamM376
New member
Not sure about other states but Portugal has a choice of going for "nationality" or "residence", I have the latter so free to stay in and move around the EU. Proof of residential address is necessary but don't know if a marina would be acceptable. Before the doom merchants chip in, 45 years + and have never been required to fill in a tax return there although we do have fiscal numbers and pay property and vehicle taxes.
macd
Active member
And of course there a parallels to that in many other countries, effectively accessible on an ad hoc basis. This is why I was careful to write "UK citizens as a whole", to distinguish universal rights (such as UK nationals enjoy now) from individual ones which may be available after a bureaucratic process. Of course the latter is nothing new, and long pre-dates the EU.
Foreigners have settled legally in other countries for centuries, and will no doubt continue to do so. Whether its worth the aggro for the average cruising yottie is another matter, although it certainly will be for some.
Garry & June 'Friendship'
Member
As I understand it the original idea was only opposed because they did not want it discussed prior to any Brexit negotiations...just as May was told when she tried to get the matter of EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals in the EU discussed months ago....Merkel and Co refused to discuss it prior to the triggering of Article 50...
Secondly you are confusing Freedom of Movement with actual movement of the workforce throughout the EU.... actually travelling around the EU as we do in boats is an entirely different matter.... like I said what is being proposed is similar to a glorified visa.... if anybody wants to actually reside in a country long term then as always there is the option of applying for residency...
You say your "early indications" indicate UK citizens would not retain freedom of movement then just what to you think will happen to the many thousands of people residing in places such as Spain and Portugal ?? are they going to evict them ? I think not so they will come up with something !
GrahamM376
New member
Depends on which point of view you take. The French, Portuguese & Spanish can't afford a mass exodus due to the spending power of ex pats and the effect it would have on the holiday accommodation market so, as you say, they will want a compromise. OTOH, the majority of other states don't have that problem and comments so far would indicate that they won't let us have free movement unless it's reciprocal. Under present EU residence law, I don't think France Spain & Portugal will be allowed to make up their own rules.
I think the PM is correct in not saying existing workers can stay in the UK as she needs the bargaining power. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out.
macd
Active member
That's precisely why I was careful to use the expression "UK citizens as a whole": i.e to distinguish from individuals such as you describe in Iberia (and again in post #51).
maxi77
Active member
The big question is how does she intend using this bargaining power, just to retain current rights for UK citizens in the EU or to try to get a better trade deal. When one has cut ones nose off it is easy to go for the ears too. I suspect our only hope is that at least the EU negotiators will be professional and apply common sense to the problem.
Kelpie
Well-known member
If they are allowed to set their own rules, it would make sense for them to extract the maximum possible benefit from those ex pats. So don't squeeze them so hard that they leave, but certainly put a bit of a pinch on them.
balder
Member
Today, more than ever, French will have a special tenderness for their british cousins.
Ok, sometimes, we call you "roastbif" but as well, we are also froggies with this terrible accent when trying to speak ZEU english langage.
Today another bloody muslim killed innocents in London, like in Paris and Nice. But we are part of the european Christian democratic civilization, brexit or not, nothing will change: old England, old France ( I miss my King Louis XVI...) , old Belgium and Germany etc will won against these bastards.
We must teach young people to remember where they are coming from, with a strong and high level of culture and forget the stupid blah blah protecting and excusing immigrants who refused to admit our rules and traditions.
Ok, sometimes, we call you "roastbif" but as well, we are also froggies with this terrible accent when trying to speak ZEU english langage.
Today another bloody muslim killed innocents in London, like in Paris and Nice. But we are part of the european Christian democratic civilization, brexit or not, nothing will change: old England, old France ( I miss my King Louis XVI...) , old Belgium and Germany etc will won against these bastards.
We must teach young people to remember where they are coming from, with a strong and high level of culture and forget the stupid blah blah protecting and excusing immigrants who refused to admit our rules and traditions.
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Kelpie
Well-known member
The attacker in London wasn't an immigrant.
But thank you for your concerns. I think.
But thank you for your concerns. I think.
Hadenough
Well-known member
But do you think that I will be able to buy a baguette? I think maybe the thread has drifted slightly, anyway thanks all.
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My experience: I took my boat to S Brittany in 2013 and I detect a distinct cooling of French attitudes towards Brits since then. Brexit seems more a source of embarassment than hostility for the French.
As I write, I'm in l'Aber Wrac'h with Irish crew. We ate out last night and ended up sharing a carafe or two with local fishermen who made plain, in a humourous way, their antagonism towards the British, to the extent that my Irish friend felt the need to defend me. It seems fanciful to me that the Brexit debacle hasn't soured our relationships with other Europeans.
As I write, I'm in l'Aber Wrac'h with Irish crew. We ate out last night and ended up sharing a carafe or two with local fishermen who made plain, in a humourous way, their antagonism towards the British, to the extent that my Irish friend felt the need to defend me. It seems fanciful to me that the Brexit debacle hasn't soured our relationships with other Europeans.