KINGFISHER 9
Well-Known Member
I've been stitched up big-time by a couple of yards in the past ... one in Gosport and one in Emsworth ... seems to be an industry trait.
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- Thread starter Ian h
- Start date
Boat2016
Well-Known Member
Don't think it's unique to the industry as it's something that you get with all trades, have had bad experiences with car mechanics, builders, shops etc. You live and learn.
Ian h
Well-Known Member
unfortunately it was only Verbally . Due to who was doing the work and why it was this chosen company ETC
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
I've seen Ian's aft deck and it is really very small.
85 hours - what did they do for 69 of them ?
I think that 16 hours (2 working man days) at it would easily replace the lot. Might be worth speaking to a Surveyor for an opinion on the time to strip and re-teak such a small area. The issue doesn't appear to be the materials, indeed the sum mentioned of £250 seems about right.
I think you are being royally screwed here. But if you do decide to take them on they will have to explain in detail why they didn't issue a quote or revised estimate, despite going some 5 times over their estimate. If you haven't paid them yet and as you have your boat you have the upper hand here, putting the onus on them to sue you, or offer a REASONABLE compromise.
I reckon they will back down, but if they did sue then if they deny the verbal estimate of 16 hours ask the Judge to have them state this on oath, very few will lie at that point. It is also a reasonable expectation that a job costing ~ £1,000 would not see you getting loads of quotes, but one costing ~£4,000 likely would.
85 hours - what did they do for 69 of them ?
I think that 16 hours (2 working man days) at it would easily replace the lot. Might be worth speaking to a Surveyor for an opinion on the time to strip and re-teak such a small area. The issue doesn't appear to be the materials, indeed the sum mentioned of £250 seems about right.
I think you are being royally screwed here. But if you do decide to take them on they will have to explain in detail why they didn't issue a quote or revised estimate, despite going some 5 times over their estimate. If you haven't paid them yet and as you have your boat you have the upper hand here, putting the onus on them to sue you, or offer a REASONABLE compromise.
I reckon they will back down, but if they did sue then if they deny the verbal estimate of 16 hours ask the Judge to have them state this on oath, very few will lie at that point. It is also a reasonable expectation that a job costing ~ £1,000 would not see you getting loads of quotes, but one costing ~£4,000 likely would.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Mmm... I can only reconfirm what I said previously.
Aside from the fact that normally you don't do a job like this unless the teak is worn out and has to be replaced, the suggestion that the teak panels can be "lift off and re-bonded" is incompetent wishful thinking at best, or premeditated ripoff at worst. :ambivalence:
jfm
Well-Known Member
Well it doesn't fully explain the whole thing. I don't want to comment on this without seeing everything because the devil is all in the detail but I must say I interpret the above as them saying they will remove the old and fit new, just as anyone would expect seeing Scubaman's picture for example. I realise it says "where necessary" but it is common for tradesmen to insert redundant and confusing language that doesn't bear the precision that a proper reading would place on it. I take the totality of that quoted part to mean remove old teak and fit/caulk new = 16 hours, especially as it is impossible to remove and refit, as said many times above, and they knew that or ought to have, hence a judge will see that estimate as "remove old/fit new 16 hours".
That in isolation supports your case but without seeing the subsequent correspondence where (it seems) they asked for more £££ and you perhaps said something in reply but I don't know what, I'm not offering any comment on the question of whether you owe them more money. 85 hours is of course crazy so the answer is maybe somewhere between 16 and 85, but I don't know what because this turns firstly on what you actually agreed or what a judge will find from the evidence that you agreed. As well as the email exchange or other correspondence, you also need to have regard to any standard T+Cs that you might have agreed to. As I say, the devil is in all the detail. Best of luck
jfm
Well-Known Member
Be careful. First, the question is what was agreed, not what is reasonable. You can only substitute reasonable as a last resort. A surveyor might be a clumsy move because unless you engage him in CPR35 terms (which I guess he will know, if you flag it for him) you will have spun a few wheels and wasted some money in the event you need to sue. Remember this is smalls claim track so OP must be very careful on costs to avoid shooting himself in foot or paying for something twice etc
Stats007
Well-Known Member
You could re-teak an entire deck in 85 hours - maybe they missed a decimal point?
Nick_H
Well-Known Member
Taking your clumsy wording point, simply moving the comma gives "To Lift off existing teak panelling from bathing platform (and) manufacture replacement planking, where necessary, prime and re-bond / re-caulk." It certainly seems Ian h was not expecting a complete new deck based on discussions he had around the original quote.
petem
Well-Known Member
Are Hunton teak decks ultra thick or some such thing? When I've had quote from Wattsons for new Targa 30 / 34 decks they were only about £700 so I'd assume £1000 fitted would be the right ball park.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Yup all highly debatable. If you take into account the impossibility of remove/refit, and change very few words, I think you can argue that the parties meant the following, which puts Ian-h in a strong position:
"To Lift off existing teak panelling from bathing platform , manufacture replacement planking for the relevant area, prime and re-bond / re-caulk.
Estimated labour: 16 Hours
This proposal for the meaning is also supported by the fact that 16 hours is about right for the job
jfm
Well-Known Member
Nope. They're normal plastic boat decks
petem
Well-Known Member
Teak over ply then a la Fairline? Further begs the question how / why they thought they could repair them instead of chiselling it off and replacing with new?
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jfm
Well-Known Member
As I say, I'm not sure they did. Often the words written on an email do not correctly convey what was in the reader's head. I'm saying take care in interpreting the part Ian_h has quoted
rlw
Well-Known Member
I removed the teak on my T40 bathing platform and entrance. 12 hours probably.
Replacement teak + fitting was 800 €
Replacement teak + fitting was 800 €
kanajobe48
Well-Known Member
I thought that as this is an estimate - not a quote then the hours are a variant? , and as only estimated they could go up or down, the material eliment appeares a fixed cost as allowed to replace where necessary .i thought a quote is a fixed cost unless specifically stated that it's not, and an estimate is a potentially variable cost as its only estimating the time to take, however it's not an excuse for an open cheque book. In this case where it has gone up so far above the estimated hours I would argue that they would be duty bound to advise you before the hours exceeded a reasonable rise - ie 24 hrs?
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
If you dispute a debt placed against you it is important to set out your dispute in writing and as early as possible.
This prevents the party seeking payment from legitimately issuing a Statutary Demand for Payment.
We we occasionally use this technique to get undisputed debts paid, and when one is served on a debtor who has not lodged a dispute he has little choice but to pay up, and then face the onerous task of trying to get his money back if he feels aggrieved.
Once a dispute has been lodged should the would be creditor then issue a Stat Demand the debtor can easily apply for a restraining order often at significant cost to the creditor, especially if he tries to fight the application for restraint.
if this were me I would be setting our my objection in detail along with explanation and remittance of the sum I felt fair by cheque with clear reference to this being full and final payment.
Others may correct me but I think if they accept your payment they de facto acknowledge your terms of making it. At very least they would have to explain to the Judge why they accepted your payment as well as explaining the rest of their claim if they then chose to sue you.
This prevents the party seeking payment from legitimately issuing a Statutary Demand for Payment.
We we occasionally use this technique to get undisputed debts paid, and when one is served on a debtor who has not lodged a dispute he has little choice but to pay up, and then face the onerous task of trying to get his money back if he feels aggrieved.
Once a dispute has been lodged should the would be creditor then issue a Stat Demand the debtor can easily apply for a restraining order often at significant cost to the creditor, especially if he tries to fight the application for restraint.
if this were me I would be setting our my objection in detail along with explanation and remittance of the sum I felt fair by cheque with clear reference to this being full and final payment.
Others may correct me but I think if they accept your payment they de facto acknowledge your terms of making it. At very least they would have to explain to the Judge why they accepted your payment as well as explaining the rest of their claim if they then chose to sue you.
Momac
Well-Known Member
Not the first occasion that I have heard of people being presented with a bill that far exceeded the original estimate . But proceeding with work that has not been instructed at all is a new one.
I think you should never again speak to anyone at the company involved in case they take a simple enquiry as an instruction to proceed with expenditure.
Ian h
Well-Known Member
Yes it was an estimate , But for such a small job you would expect that they were fairly close on hours. 16 to 85 I feel is totally unacceptable.
As I previously mentioned the hourly rate seems reasonable and is not what I am questioning . It is the lack of communication advising that many more hours would be required.
Just to give people an idea of the size of job the "teak Margins have been recorded as 0.333 CU-FT and all materials came to £149.70 Ex VAT
silverdee
Well-Known Member
As I understand it you have the boat back in your possession.
Suggest you pay em whats you deem fair / in line with estimate - you didn`t authorise the extra work nor the cover cleaning job- include a bit extra if you want. Let them go to the cost of issuing county court proceedings against you- that`s their hurdle and take it from there. If you get a issued claim and response pack fire it over for a bit of pro bono advice. Imho -name them on here so we can all decide whether to steer clear or not.
Suggest you pay em whats you deem fair / in line with estimate - you didn`t authorise the extra work nor the cover cleaning job- include a bit extra if you want. Let them go to the cost of issuing county court proceedings against you- that`s their hurdle and take it from there. If you get a issued claim and response pack fire it over for a bit of pro bono advice. Imho -name them on here so we can all decide whether to steer clear or not.
