Forum Help

[Ian h]

I was given an estimate to remove the teak on the bathing platform of my Hunton 36, and the small step above, the original estimate was remove and repair and put back.
This was for total of 16 hours labour plus materials. - Not bad I thought.

BUT
When they came to remove the old teak they found that water had got underneath and there was nothing worth saving, I was informed of this and the only option was for complete replacement, I did ask more than once for a quote as to how much this would be, But nothing forth coming, 2.5 weeks later I chased up to see what was happening and was told the boat had just been finished and the bill would be with me shortly. Imagine my shock and horror when the bill arrived with "85" hours of labour plus materials.

As you can guess I now have a much larger bill than expected .
Where do I stand with this ?? Its more than I had ever guessed and after speaking to others they can not see where all the hours have gone, I have had email conversations with company and they have produced a log of hours used and what they claim they did.
Does 85 hours total labour sound about right ? As said it not exactly very big. The materials only came to £250
Help appreciated

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

Get quotes from other companies, even ask them to see your boat so there is no confusion as to what you want.
Armed with these go to the people that did the work. They have 2 choices: either reduce the bill or remove the work and materials that you did not order.

 

[superheat6k]

Thank them sincerely for the excellent work, pay them the 16 hours quoted plus the reasonable amount of materials, + 4 hours for reasonable extra time, then tell them to get stuffed for the rest, especially as you had requested more than once that they quote you, not simply get on with it. An estimate has to be reasonable. If works vary this much (i.e..more than 25%) then they are duty bound to inform you first. By paying them an extra 4 hours plus the materials you are being reasonable. They are not.

A PM to JFM might be required. Also do they have your boat as they might try applying a lien. If they do do this then you do have the option of paying in protest, and make this clear to them, then issue them a County Court Summons.

Then when alls done name and shame on here.

 

[Boat2016]

To remove repair and refit should take similar time as remove and fit new, can't see why there's such a big difference except that they fitted a new deck instead of repairing the old one and putting back. Only difference is the cost of the new deck.
I would say here who done the job as a warning to others who may get caught in a similar way.

 

[Ian h]

Thank them sincerely for the excellent work, pay them the 16 hours quoted plus the reasonable amount of materials, + 4 hours for reasonable extra time, then tell them to get stuffed for the rest, especially as you had requested more than once that they quote you, not simply get on with it. An estimate has to be reasonable. If works vary this much (i.e..more than 25%) then they are duty bound to inform you first. By paying them an extra 4 hours plus the materials you are being reasonable. They are not.

A PM to JFM might be required. Also do they have your boat as they might try applying a lien. If they do do this then you do have the option of paying in protest, and make this clear to them, then issue them a County Court Summons.

Then when alls done name and shame on here.

Many thanks Trevor, Boat is back up in the Drystack rack, MDL Manager is aware of the issues.
In fact he was my first point of call to see how many hours were spent working on the boat.
I would say that the hourly labour rate I am ok with it is just the greater number I.E Estimate 16 end job 85.

The other annoying part of all this is that during conversation with company I asked if they knew a boat cover cleaning company . They said yes and once the job was finished they would pass me their details so I could get the cover cleaned and re-proofed . I add here that this is an all over boat cover so rather large. I.E 36 feet long.
The cheeky so and so's even took the liberty of sending the cover away for cleaning and reproofing - again not authorised,
For this privilege they obviously passed on the cleaning costs BUT added their 22% margin to that part of the bill.

My main question which you have answered is should I have been informed "PRIOR" to starting of any additional work .

Wonder where I stand legally ?

Thank you all for replies so far.
If JFM is reading this And is able to offer advice I am happy to forward all email communications between myself and the company concerned,

 

[Nick_H]

I don't know the Hunton well, but how do you remove the teak without destroying it anyway? Was it ever possible to remove and repair it, even if it had been in good condition.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Just by way of a comparison, it took two of us about half a day to remove the teak from the bathing platform of my Targa 40, and I can't see how we could have removed it without destroying it (it is bonded to the grp moulding). It then took about a day for one man to fit the new teak.

Your materials cost sounds low though, so are we talking about the same thing - teak decking on a grp-moulded bathing platform? If they've cut every piece of teak individually then I can imagine that the labour cost would be high.

 

[scubaman]

I had the teak replaced on my boat last winter and removing the old teak was strictly a 'hammer and chisel' job. I can't see a way the old teak could have been taken out so that it could have been refitted. Maybe if teak planks or sheets of teak on ply were fastened only with screws but I've haven't come across such an installation.

Here is a pic of my removal job half way through:

If the old teak on your boat was fastened in the normal way (ie. bonded to the grp) that would suggest to me that their plan all along was to get you to agree on a smallish job and then force up-sell you the rest of the work.

Edit: further, not knowing what there was on the teak to repair, but I struggle to see what feasible repair could be done that would require the teak to be removed and put back (as opposed to doing the repairs in-situ).

 

[Firefly625]

85 hrs is around 12 days work, for a bathing platform that just sounds a very long time.

I had 16 seacocks replaced last year, the company we used, Osmotec refused to quote a price as they said they could not accurately tell what they might find so they quote an hourly rate (£45) and said it would take as long as it takes... Now we went ahead as they do have a very good name and they did do a very good job, they did identify a few more issues which also required further work (all genuine) so the final invoice was double what I imagined it would be.. although good, they did seem to have the opinion that if you need to ask how much, you obviously can't afford it so either you employ them to do the work, or you go elsewhere.

For course I have no idea what company you are dealing with, just saying there can be a bit of a trend that boat repair companies really know how to charge!!

Horrid situation to be in, good luck. (BTW, do like Superheats suggestion)

 

[Ian h]

At this stage I obviously do not want to name the company , but what I will say is the the person whom did the quote knew how the original teak was put down ,
The quote was based on repair so I wrongly assumed he felt it was repairable based on his knowledge of the boat,
It just seems that as they went along they found other things to do but did not make me aware of additional work being done,

 

[Nick_H]

Did he mention removing the whole panels for repair? If not, then I assume he originally quoted to remove and replace only some damaged or worn planks, and fix the caulking, but when they lifted the planks they found wider damage that meant the whole deck was beyond economic repair. They then let you know the whole panel(s) needed replacing (and by inference, if not explicitly, that it would cost more), so I think the devil is in the detail of whether and how clearly you then told them to stop work until they had submitted a formal quote.

The hours still need to be reasonable of course, but if materials were only £250 then it sounds like they made the panel(s) themselves, which can be very labour intensive, although 85 hours still seems very high.

 

[Nick_H]

It just seems that as they went along they found other things to do but did not make me aware of additional work being done,

In your first post you said they did tell you that the whole deck needed replacing, which obviously constituted substantial additional work. I really feel for you being landed with this unexpected bill, but I think it's important to relay the facts clearly and unambiguously, so you can get the best advice on here.

 

[gjgm]

Another way to look at it is to ask someone else what is would cost to remove the old and fit the new...I think decking teak costs about 200 per Sq metre,milled, though if this is their line of work, it could be somewhat less...add epoxy and caulking..which is expensive, and I am puzzled by the materials costs...I suppose if they destroyed the deck pattern, they then had to redesign the new one...
And let's not forget travelling time and all those other key 50 per hour costs....
I am rather with you Nick regarding the detail..they have of course, provided the time sheet....
I remember VP dealer charging for outdrive oil change at x times two..so I asked what they were doing while leg one was draining...er...nothing..Well,why didn't you drain leg two then...ooh, now....that isn't in the VP charge sheet....
Hmmmm...

 

[Ian h]

In your first post you said they did tell you that the whole deck needed replacing, which obviously constituted substantial additional work. I really feel for you being landed with this unexpected bill, but I think it's important to relay the facts clearly and unambiguously, so you can get the best advice on here.

Hello Nick, Yes I understood that the whole bathing platform needed replacing, But they seemed to find additional Fibreglass work to do. I.E they said there were voids in the bathing platform that needed sorting before they could re-lay the teak. This is what I meant by "Additional " work.

 

[Ian h]

Did he mention removing the whole panels for repair? If not, then I assume he originally quoted to remove and replace only some damaged or worn planks, and fix the caulking, but when they lifted the planks they found wider damage that meant the whole deck was beyond economic repair. They then let you know the whole panel(s) needed replacing (and by inference, if not explicitly, that it would cost more), so I think the devil is in the detail of whether and how clearly you then told them to stop work until they had submitted a formal quote.

The hours still need to be reasonable of course, but if materials were only £250 then it sounds like they made the panel(s) themselves, which can be very labour intensive, although 85 hours still seems very high.

That is how the first email reads with original estimate of time and costs , Remove all Teak, and repair / replace the damaged parts.
I did agree to the complete replacement. But as said they never provided the new quote, I guess I was at fault a bit here as I assumed as I had asked the quote would be forth coming . As per other reply they seemed to find other bits requiring work associated with bathing platform that I knew nothing about until the bill arrived
Yes they did make the panels themselves,
Sorry If I have missed out bits but I am trying not to say whom did the work at this stage.

 

[Ian h]

Just by way of a comparison, it took two of us about half a day to remove the teak from the bathing platform of my Targa 40, and I can't see how we could have removed it without destroying it (it is bonded to the grp moulding). It then took about a day for one man to fit the new teak.

Your materials cost sounds low though, so are we talking about the same thing - teak decking on a grp-moulded bathing platform? If they've cut every piece of teak individually then I can imagine that the labour cost would be high.

This platform is small its no deeper than 50 - 60 cm in one way and the tapers either side to a couple of inches .

They have advised 2 days to fit and finish the teak to boat. 3 days to remove

 

[PCUK]

You've been had, end of story!
Couple of hours for the GRP work as it doesn't matter what it looks like. Couple of days for the teak laying and that's generous.

 

[MapisM]

That is how the first email reads with original estimate of time and costs , Remove all Teak, and repair / replace the damaged parts.

I'm not trying to excuse the yard behavior, because if nothing else they are obviously at fault for not having sent you the quote you asked, but didn't the "remove and repair teak" ring you a bell from the beginning?
I mean, that's something that can't be done, plain and simple.
Just look at the self-explanatory pic posted by scubaman: who in his right mind could think to repair something whose removal implies a complete destruction? And how?
A yard that quotes a job like that, either doesn't have a clue of what they are doing, or specifically aims at ripping the client off afterwards, imho.

 

[Ian h]

This is what was on the original quote

" To Lift off existing teak panelling from bathing platform , manufacture replacement planking where necessary, prime and re-bond / re-caulk.
Estimated labour: 16 Hours"

Now hopefully this explains why I am upset

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

How did you ask them for the further quotation (when they told you that there was nothing worth saving) - verbally, or in writing (eg by email)?