Fork or 'V' anchoring

[noelex]

We should not be talking about 25-30 knots of wind at anchor as if its something special, but Jonathan, I think your experience is based on just cruising Australia in a shallow draft cat.

If you set two anchors in a “V” configuration, you are essentially “fishing” for boats dragging. Anchors dragging anywhere in the distance between the two anchors you have set in a “V” are likely to get caught in your “net”, especially when all your rode is off the bottom. Once caught, the dragging boat becomes funneled towards the apex.

An anchor alarm is important. The suggestion frequently presented on YBW that new generation anchors never drag, sadly, is not accurate.

 

[RupertW]

In general if you are in an anchorage where winds, measured on your yacht, are going to be in excess of 25/30 knots then it is unlikely to be a crowded anchorage (because the crowds will stay in a marina). There are always exceptions to any situation but damning something, a product or a technique, because your experiences are based on one situation lacks some validity.


Jonathan

In a lot of the sailing world that's not actually the case - two very popular sailing areas in my limited experience - Greece and the Caribbean - have very few marinas and very many anchorages, so "sheltered" anchorages get very very crowded in strong winds - sheltered from the sea rather than the wind.

It's why I'm unlikely to be able to use a Vee very often but have found it to be extremely simple and effective when I've been able to. I have tried setting it by dinghy but now find it easier to set the primary on a long scope then motor up and sideways to set the second and fall back on boat. The most important part for me is the reduction in veering (or yawing) so each anchor takes its turn with little momentum built up or sideways force. Our Vees have tended to be 45-60 degrees but that's more about space than effectiveness. I've never used one long enough to need a swivel and have tended to unwind the rope rode of the secondary anchor by untieing it at the bow and passing the loop round and round the chain until I can pull more chain up freely and repeat the process if needed.

 

[Neeves]

We should not be talking about 25-30 knots of wind at anchor as if its something special, but Jonathan, I think your experience is based on just cruising Australia in a shallow draft cat.

.

Maybe next time you can check before you think, incorrectly.

Actually I think 25/30 knots in an anchorage should be considered as something special - as most or many anchorages are so defined, as anchorages, as being sheltered. People are surprised when the defined anchorage is subject to winds over 30 knots - and need options. A single anchor (NG, Big, NG and Big, or otherwise) is not going to reduce veering (and marital discord). Exploring options, riding sail, hammerlock, 'V' anchoring - all seem topics to discuss here (and none are perfect, as you repeatedly point out) and then skippers can make their own decisions.

We anchored in a strong tidal flow, and did not think of a Bahamian moor - now I, at least, know how others do it (and why).

There are a surprising number of respondents who value anchoring in a 'V' including the Med, there are a cross section of experiences. I might have initiated the thread - but some reputable people use the technique (I have not made it up) - you are not being critical of me, alone - but also them. I've been surprised by the numbers that use a 'V'. None have mentioned the issues of a drifting/dragging yacht, which may be an omission - and if it was a significant danger - someone would have mentioned it.

When you spread your wings - you might develop different views.

Jonathan

Edit

I hope cruising is not being limited to the Med, specifically Greece, and Caribbean - if so Sunsail should close up shop!

Close edit

 

[GHA]

In a lot of the sailing world that's not actually the case - two very popular sailing areas in my limited experience - Greece and the Caribbean - have very few marinas and very many anchorages, so "sheltered" anchorages get very very crowded in strong winds - sheltered from the sea rather than the wind.

Indeed, aren't most popular cruising areas where long term cruisers hang out the same?

Certainly wouldn't risk a chain round one of the rodes by having 2 chains out in any kind of busy anchorage though 25/30Kts isn't that much really, but it is for the holiday/charter boats - they'll be the ones dragging by if you didn't manage the get well upwind.

 

[fisherman]

Waddayaknow, Danton's manual is online, some of it, interesting, but mostly not apposite to small boats:

http://opac.vimaru.edu.vn/edata/EBook/The Theory And Practice Of Seamanship.pdf

 

[maxi77]

Interestingly anchoring a 'V' is not uncommon in 'big' ships. I know one cruise ship captain, 2,000 passengers so quite big, who uses 2 anchors when they are anchored off 'tropical' islands to stop, reduce, the ship from yawing to make it easier for the tenders to ferry passengers. From memory HMNZS Canterbury deployed 2 anchors at Auckland Island a couple of years ago to stop yawing.

I was not aware of the term hammerlock till recently but deploying a second anchor is in one of HM navy books of seaman ship - though I've never heard of it being used.

To me a hammerlock is a funny chain joining device used by the lifting industry.

Jonathan

Using two anchors in the RN was termed as mooring where as a single anchor was anchoring. I only encountered it in basic seamanship at Dartmouth and did it in the classroom with a model of HMS Rodney's fo'c'stle, The anchors were set in a wide V and both anchor cables split to introduce a 'mooring swivel' to stop the two cables twisting. The mooring swivel was set at the stem just below the hausepipes. As you can imagine this was not the simplest of actions. The main purpose was to reduce swinging circle. As I spent most of my sea time in submarines which only have one anchor I never saw it done for real

 

[noelex]

Even the professionals sometimes tangle two anchors.

This was in about 45 knots and we watched for over an hour after they dragged and tried without luck to sort out this mess. We were quite happily lying to a single anchor.

It was a brave guy on the ladder.

 

[Neeves]

This was in about 45 knots ......We were quite happily lying to a single anchor.

Good for you, I'm happy for you.

Not every one's yacht and the anchorage in which they are located is comfortable at 45 knots. There are simple ways to make it more comfortable - don't become an entrenched denier, embrace other ideas - others do (and other ideas obviously work).


We were in Trial Bay, NSW overnight and sheltering from a southerly and a small cruise ship (200'), skeleton crew, lost their anchor. We found the anchor for them (as we knew from a photo we had taken where they had been anchored). They called up a local diver who put a large line on the lost anchor, small only around 2t. Having helped them we were invited on board to watch them retrieve. In order to retrieve the lost anchor they had to deploy their second anchor but unbelievably the second chain did not fit the gypsy (says little for the Classification Society certification) and each link had to be hammered with a big sledge hammer and bar to free it. During the exercise, which took all day, they too twisted their rodes - and used their thrusters (they had bow and stern) to untwist (simple stuff).

The ship was enroute for service and they had a deep freeze full of food - they allowed us to have as much as we could carry. It was an entertaining day - particularly as we were pinned into the bay anyway for a couple of days.

edit

I have never seen a large commercial ship deploy 2 anchors - but cruise ships often do it to steady the vessel, stop yawing (now where have I read that before as a reason to deploy 2 anchors) and make it easier for the tenders to take passengers ashore. Losing anchors off large commercial ships is also surprisingly common (which is why they carry 2 on the bow and one, spare, on the foredeck).

close edit

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

No one answer.

Someone said "why would you ever use 2 anchors in-line if they don't work. Move." I was reading a blog about someone's polar trip this afternoon. Most of the anchoring was exposed to wind, and the bottom was very often cobbles and shingle. No sand, no mud--those are sometimes just unavailble. So they happily used 2 anchors in-line. Why not one anchor? first, the anchors were quite large already. Second, two anchors can out perform a single when the mode is hooking on small things; I've done the testings, seen it with my own eyes, and believe.

So I suspect most of the posters are correct for their experience. The explanations make sense. But where every you are, it is not the center of the world. That goes for all of us.

 

[vyv_cox]

Good for you, I'm happy for you.

Not every one's yacht and the anchorage in which they are located is comfortable at 45 knots. There are simple ways to make it more comfortable - don't become an entrenched denier, embrace other ideas - others do (and other ideas obviously work).


We were in Trial Bay, NSW overnight and sheltering from a southerly and a small cruise ship (200'), skeleton crew, lost their anchor. We found the anchor for them (as we knew from a photo we had taken where they had been anchored). They called up a local diver who put a large line on the lost anchor, small only around 2t. Having helped them we were invited on board to watch them retrieve. In order to retrieve the lost anchor they had to deploy their second anchor but unbelievably the second chain did not fit the gypsy (says little for the Classification Society certification) and each link had to be hammered with a big sledge hammer and bar to free it. During the exercise, which took all day, they too twisted their rodes - and used their thrusters (they had bow and stern) to untwist (simple stuff).

The ship was enroute for service and they had a deep freeze full of food - they allowed us to have as much as we could carry. It was an entertaining day - particularly as we were pinned into the bay anyway for a couple of days.

edit

I have never seen a large commercial ship deploy 2 anchors - but cruise ships often do it to steady the vessel, stop yawing (now where have I read that before as a reason to deploy 2 anchors) and make it easier for the tenders to take passengers ashore. Losing anchors off large commercial ships is also surprisingly common (which is why they carry 2 on the bow and one, spare, on the foredeck).

close edit

Jonathan

A good turn rewarded for once!

Greek ferries lie to two anchors very often. Berthing stern-to is the normal method for them, even for large vessels in the biggest of ports. In the smaller ones it can be highly entertaining to watch a ship that appears enormous in the surroundings drop first one anchor, then another at about 90 degrees. Superb skills that rarely fail to achieve the perfect, desired conclusion.

 

[Neeves]

A good turn rewarded for once!

Greek ferries lie to two anchors very often. Berthing stern-to is the normal method for them, even for large vessels in the biggest of ports. In the smaller ones it can be highly entertaining to watch a ship that appears enormous in the surroundings drop first one anchor, then another at about 90 degrees. Superb skills that rarely fail to achieve the perfect, desired conclusion.

I think there was a degree of embarrassment (that increased when they discovered the chain on the second anchor did not fit the windlass) which may have contributed to their largesse. They lost the anchor at the end of the first shackle (I cannot recall what the joiner is called). They had not bothered to set either an anchor alarm, nor taken a GPS position. We had seen them at breakfast as they anchored not far from us and were sheltering from the same winds. The first we knew was when they called for a diver on the VHF - we thought they were simply moving up the coast, when they were actually drifting across and out of the bay. We knew, roughly, where they had anchored as we had taken a photo (it was so unusual to have large ship in that anchorage) and had a line on their position from us to a tree off the beach - it was simply a case of taking the dinghy and running up and down that line and 22 yards of chain was easy to find, neatly laid on the seabed. We dropped a buoy which the divers then used to find the errant anchor. We had no thought other than offering help - but they then invited us on board and the entertainment continued.

I have seen Greek ferry boats laying 2 anchors as they come stern in - its a real art, slick, very impressive. I was also impressed that scopes seemed low, or rodes short - yet they achieve sufficient hold to meet their desired needs (using some variation of fluke, plate, anchors) - which I assume was to hold the ferry at 90 degrees to the wharf.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

An anchor alarm is important. The suggestion frequently presented on YBW that new generation anchors never drag, sadly, is not accurate.

I quote from CF, as it appeared to be timely. Its a bit of a drift from 'V' anchoring but reinforces what Noelex has said of NG, or any, anchor.

quote:

Re the original post: Fifteen years cruising have taught/convinced me that:
1. Anchors and chains are like dairy cows, a good big one is always going to beat a good little'un.
2. There are three types of yachtie - those that have never anchored, those that have dragged at some time or other and those who've dragged but lie about it. Of the third category these seem most prevalent amongst those who've spent money on an expensive new-generation anchor, particularly a Rocna. Only about a three months ago there was a guy pontificating in a yottie's bar whose Rocna had 'never let him down'. I interjected to enquire how the gelcoat repair had come out after he'd gouged his port side across our bow roller in Guadeloupe a couple of years before? As recocognition dawned, his face was a picture.
3.With the exception of the Britany anchor - thank god there are fewer in use out here than in the Mediterranean! - all anchors do their job, the trick is getting them laid/set right to begin with and that's the single biggest advantage of the new-generation anchors, they're much more forgiving of poor/careless anchoring technique.
4. Carry a Fortress, they stow easily, add very little weight and for some reason - I've no idea why - seem to hold way better in thin mud than anything else we've tried, even the similarly shaped and much heavier (see point 1 above) Danforth.

end quote

copied from:

Post 114, and post 115 is also interesting???

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f118/yep-we-dragged-201171-8.html

Once you have read post 114 - some of the rest of the thread is also interesting.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

I quote from CF, as it appeared to be timely. Its a bit of a drift from 'V' anchoring but reinforces what Noelex has said of NG, or any, anchor.

quote:

Re the original post: Fifteen years cruising have taught/convinced me that:
1. Anchors and chains are like dairy cows, a good big one is always going to beat a good little'un.
2. There are three types of yachtie - those that have never anchored, those that have dragged at some time or other and those who've dragged but lie about it. Of the third category these seem most prevalent amongst those who've spent money on an expensive new-generation anchor, particularly a Rocna. Only about a three months ago there was a guy pontificating in a yottie's bar whose Rocna had 'never let him down'. I interjected to enquire how the gelcoat repair had come out after he'd gouged his port side across our bow roller in Guadeloupe a couple of years before? As recocognition dawned, his face was a picture.
3.With the exception of the Britany anchor - thank god there are fewer in use out here than in the Mediterranean! - all anchors do their job, the trick is getting them laid/set right to begin with and that's the single biggest advantage of the new-generation anchors, they're much more forgiving of poor/careless anchoring technique.
4. Carry a Fortress, they stow easily, add very little weight and for some reason - I've no idea why - seem to hold way better in thin mud than anything else we've tried, even the similarly shaped and much heavier (see point 1 above) Danforth.

end quote

copied from:

Post 114, and post 115 is also interesting???

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f118/yep-we-dragged-201171-8.html

Once you have read post 114 - some of the rest of the thread is also interesting.

Jonathan

Yup, I've dragged. Several times, with several anchor types. Fortunately, I never grounded or hit anything, since each time I had my suspicions and was watching it like a hawk. And each time I leaned something, such that it has now been about 8 years (ditched the Delta).

 

[Neeves]

We dragged regularly with our Manson plough (CQR derived). It became so regular we were always relieved when we did not drag. We never found a way to make it reliable. We nearly wept when meeting someone 18 months ago who had actually invested in a new one! (and could not get it to set) The Excel and then Spade were a revalation - and when both of these dragged under engine power in thin mud, but the Fortress held, another revalation (NG do drag! and Fortress are exceptional! - horses for courses). I suspect in very soft sand a Fortress will out perform most NG anchors and tests suggest in clean sand be their equal. Catching something, even quite small) in the toe of any anchor - more prone if the toe is sharp (common with NG) - will cause any anchor (whether big or small) to drag. There is no fool proof answer.

We once caught a small gas cylinder, 4.5kg, in the toe of our Excel (neatly lodging the toe in the 'handle' at the top of the cylinder) - the anchor would not set - hardly a surprise when we saw our booty!

Of course if you have anchored in a 'V' you have halved the chance of catching something in the toe.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

My undersized Delta surprised me once, holding through a vicious hail storm will barely set in liquid mud. It took perhaps 30 minutes and a dive to free it. It seems we hooked a shopping cart that was itself well-buried in the mud.

 

[noelex]

quote:

Just to be clear, the post from Cruisers Forum was written by another member, not myself.

I know it could not have been me, as I had no idea anchors share so much in common with dairy cows .

 

[noelex]

Of course if you have anchored in a 'V' you have halved the chance of catching something in the toe.

Jonathan

Using two anchors rather than one doubles not halves your chances of catching something on the toe.

Catching debris on the anchor is a problem. The best defence is an anchor that sets in a short distance. This greatly reduces (not eliminates) the chance that the anchor will encounter something like a gas cylinder.

This is one area where modern anchor designs are significantly better. They typically set in a fraction of the distance of the older designs. Convex plough anchors in particular can have a very long setting distance unless the substrate has the ideal medium-soft consistency. The risk of encountering man made rubbish or a natural obstacle, for example an isolated rock, then increases. The problem is exacerbated because not only do these designs take a long distance to set, but they also move a greater distance if the wind picks up and the anchor has to dive deeper.

The other defence against encountering debris is an anchor that can shuffle well. Good anchors will typically respond to a change in direction of pull by staying set and rotating without otherwise moving. An anchor that breaks out completely and has to reset has a chance of encountering some debris while it is traveling along the bottom.

Even when you have chosen an anchor design thats sets quickly and rotates well it is still important to test the anchor by applying some force (usually with reverse engine power). An anchor that is fouled will typically refuse to set at all, but it is also worth trying to estimate the setting distance and becoming suspicious if it is abnormally long. The very short setting distance of good modern anchors is a help here. If the anchor does not set almost instantly something is wrong, unless it is a very soft substrate.

This stands a much a greater chance of encountering debris than a more rapid set:

 

[Neeves]

I know it could not have been me, as I had no idea anchors share so much in common with dairy cows .

Cows are like anchors in more ways than one

There is some disagreement - this is a recent, 2017, quote:

“Maintenance is really about efficiency. Historically farmers bred bigger animals to produce more milk, but we know smaller animals can produce just as much, so often bigger cows simply cost more to feed.
“There is also a concern on many farms about cows outgrowing the cubicles in both sheds and parlours and incurring extra costs there.”

Don't believe that everything posted on an internet forum is as simple as the bald statements suggest nor that the information is correct and without counter arguments.

Too much is quoted without fair comparison and without any substantiating background.



Jonathan