Fork or 'V' anchoring

[Neeves]

Apologies for the single minded threads

How many anchor use a 'V' or fork anchoring, for what ever reason. Mention has been made of setting 2 anchors, forward of the yacht (so not a kedge, not a Bahamian moor) - I wondered how common the practice.

We do it when winds are going to be consistently in one dominant direction, forecast winds will be over 25/30 knots and we expect to measure those windspeed at the mast head - many of our anchorages are not particularly sheltered from wind being low lying. I have no idea if we need to use 2 anchors - it simply seems prudent to do so and its easy, or we find it easy. If the winds are going to be 25 knots, only, we might not set 2 anchors but have the second anchor and its rode sitting ready, should the forecast be an 'underestimate', on the bow. If the winds are going to be 25/30 knots this actually means for the east coast of Australia we might be pinned into an anchorage for 2-4 days and being able to trek up a hill (all day) and the 'V' offer peace of mind - even if its unnecessary.

Reiterating we sail a 38' cat with a 22'6" beam, 7t and use 6mm chain (max 75m rode) and 30m snubbers, which we can extend from 10m to 30m. We generally anchor in 4-6m depths, high tide, and 1m from bow roller to sealevel and would commonly aim for a 5:1 scope. Our second rode is 15m of 6mm chain and 40mm of 12mm 3 ply nylon. We can set our second anchor either from the bow or using a dinghy. Our anchors are all alloy, all weigh 8kg and are Fortress, Excel and Spade (we carry the Excel on the bow roller).

I cannot recall the last time we dragged - but it was when we used a CQR copy as a primary. We did drag with our Excel, or more accurately could not get it to set, in thin mud (near the entrance to the Gordon River in Tasmania) when we had a Storm warning and replaced the Excel with a Fortress (and the winds never materialised) we were well sheltered.

So how common is the practice of anchoring in a 'V'

Jonathan

 

[RupertW]

I’ve done it but very rarely but wish I could do it more often. We veer a lot and I don’t like the snatching at the end of each veer.

But we sail mostly in season so can’t be the only boat on a V when all others are one anchor.

In forecast strong winds we are more likely to tie back to shore as even with a crosswind the anchor is pulling in one consistent direction

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I make the decision based on 'there is going to be a blow'. I then set in a V mostly by engine but occasionally by sail and never by dinghy. I also set a running mooring by sail or engine.

It has been a few years since I set either.

 

[noelex]

In my view, if you think you need two anchors in 25 -30 knots you would be much better with a larger primary anchor.

Simpler, easier, lighter overall, and there is no conflict with other cruising boats that are much more likely to be lying to a single anchor. Perhaps most importantly, you have the security even when the forecast is wrong and winds are stronger than expected.

 

[Yngmar]

What do you do when the wind decides to suddenly change direction? Seems a good recipe to get tangled in your own gear and even if not, time consuming to pick up if you need to leave in a hurry.

 

[GHA]

In my view, if you think you need two anchors in 25 -30 knots you would be much better with a larger primary anchor.

Simpler, easier, lighter overall, and there is no conflict with other cruising boats that are much more likely to be lying to a single anchor. Perhaps most importantly, you have the security even when the forecast is wrong and winds are stronger than expected.

Big :encouragement:

And a lot of quite precise questions being asked - does anyone else have a slight suspicion that there just might be a bit of cloud sourcing of data going on here which could possibly end up inside Practical Sailor........

 

[Neeves]

What do you do when the wind decides to suddenly change direction? Seems a good recipe to get tangled in your own gear and even if not, time consuming to pick up if you need to leave in a hurry.

Our winds are fairly well forecast, they might get timing wrong, they might get strength wrong - but our weather is dictated by fronts coming out of Antarctica, sweeping across the Southern Ocean and are well defined for thousands of miles previous.

Further north, way north of Brisbane, they are subject to cyclones, varying wind direction, in the summer - but commonly insurance would not cover us and in the winter, in the north, the SE Trades are also consistent.

We don't have the issue of big wind changes

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

In my view, if you think you need two anchors in 25 -30 knots you would be much better with a larger primary anchor.

Simpler, easier, lighter overall, and there is no conflict with other cruising boats that are much more likely to be lying to a single anchor. Perhaps most importantly, you have the security even when the forecast is wrong and winds are stronger than expected.

There are a surprising number of people in my current rash of threads who have mentioned, as an aside, that they use 2 anchors in a 'V' or fork. I had assumed most followed your doctrine - oddly there are some who do not seem to oversize their anchor, or not enough - for whatever reason. I thought it interesting to see what practices actually were.

No-one has said they NEED two anchors in 25/30 knots - if forecast were guarantees you would be correct. Currently forecast are simply forecasts. If you want to consider accuracy of forecasts think of the Fastnet Race or Sydney Hobart. We have been subject to forecast of 25 knots and much more and prudence, for us, dictates alternatives. When forecast come with guarantees we will be better able to judge.

Interestingly some people carry 'storm' anchors that they keep in lockers or down in the bilges, you seem to carry a storm anchor and use it as your primary, we carry everyday anchors and use an extra one when necessary - there is no one right answer and it would be arrogant of me to assume my answer is the only way. I know there are other options, one being to carry a large anchor all the time. Personally we don't find it difficult to deploy a second anchor - you find it difficult - so we have come to different conclusions. Your methodology is right for you, ours is right for us - but I am willing to explore options and try not to be dogmatic.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Big :encouragement:

And a lot of quite precise questions being asked - does anyone else have a slight suspicion that there just might be a bit of cloud sourcing of data going on here which could possibly end up inside Practical Sailor........

GHA, I worry about you - so predictable.

And your point is?

Jonathan

 

[duncan99210]

Generally speaking, I've found the wind direction forecasts in Greece in the season to be accurate enough to make decisions about how to anchor. Most of the time, I find that the bower anchor is enough for all but the worst winds encountered: we tend to head to favoured storm holes when high winds are forecast, places with good holding and sheltered water.
However, if I've been caught somewhere when we anticipate high winds but have uncertain holding, then I'll usually lay out the Guardian anchor as a second anchor on 10m of chain and as much rope as needed, somewhere about 60 degrees or so off the bower.It doesn't help much in reducing swinging but does give you a sense of security. In the event of a big change in wind direction, I'll drop the Guardian with the rode buoyed off to recover later and bring in the bower before re-anchoring as required.
I'll also use the Guardian as a second anchor, set to windward, when we're tied back to the shore or Med moored and there's a strong cross wind. Not always advisable, as it just adds to the knitting common enough already in Greece....

 

[zoidberg]

It's intriguing to consider that the problems and solutions debated in here ( and elsewhere ) have often been the subject of conjecture among seamen-in-sail for centuries.... the winds, waves and tides having remained equally chellenging. It's also instructive to consider how those our predecessors, unable to rely on engines, tackled the same problems. One rich source is Harland's 'Seamanship In The Age Of Sail' - a smoke-stained copy of which came my way cheaply after a fire in O M Watts' warehouse some years ago.

Relating to lying to two anchors, in the expectation of 'keeping an open hawse', there is considerable divergence of practice. In precis, when expecting a Northern Hemisphere gale to 'veer with the sun', some prefer to have their 'best bower' on port. Others - French and British - argue and practice the opposite, with second and sheet anchors to port. The range of opinions and reasons are too lengthy to reproduce here, but it is instructive to consider the Dutch practice indicated in the following pic...

Not merely an obsolete footnote to history. Consider being in the Isles of Scilly with a sudden summer gale expected. The mooring field at St Marys is exposed to the west and often full. That other set of Duchy moorings in New Grimsby Harbour is also often full. There are anchorages in several spots around which would be reasonably sheltered from seas from a westerly quarter, but all would be a little vulnerable to a veering/increasing gale. e.g St Helens Pool. There are other anchor-havens where the question is valid e.g Dale, in Milford Haven.

Then there's the question of which should be considered 'the best bower'.... One's Spade? Or one's Fortress....? Or........?

 

[Neeves]

I’ve done it but very rarely but wish I could do it more often. We veer a lot and I don’t like the snatching at the end of each veer.

But we sail mostly in season so can’t be the only boat on a V when all others are one anchor.

In forecast strong winds we are more likely to tie back to shore as even with a crosswind the anchor is pulling in one consistent direction

You would reduce the snatching by using a more elastic snubber (or higher scope). If you are restricted with space - the 'better' snubber is one answer.

We find anchoring in a 'V' or fork reduces the extremes of veering, so the veering angle reduces (I note others do not find this) - but it works for us - and is one reason we continue with the practice.

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

I have posted many times on our experience of fork mooring. Our bower is a Rocna 16 kg on 8 mm chain and the kedge, which we use as the second anchor, is a Fortress FX16 with about 5 metres of 8 mm chain and 16 mm Anchorplait. There is no question of our using this technique because our primary anchor is not big enough, it is fully capable of holding us in very big winds and has done several times.

Two years ago we anchored for about 5 days at Andros during the meltemi. The one thing we could be sure of is that the direction was not going to change. I made a video to prove our point. We and several other boats around us were yawing through 90 degrees plus, very tiring after a couple of days. I tried to lay the Fortress at about 90 degrees to the Rocna but this was difficult to estimate. I like to lay it from the dinghy in these circumstances but it was deflated in a locker, so I laid it from the boat. My estimation was not great and I succeeded in laying it at about 60 degrees and with a scope of only 3:1. Once settled our yaw angle halved to 45 degrees and the comfort factor increased accordingly.

Our boat is relatively light and only draws 1.4 metres, thus we may benefit more than some from using the technique. We find it invaluable and use it often. There is a write-up of another occasion on the website, with similar observations.

 

[Neeves]

I'm of the belief that yawing and horsing are major contributory factors to anchors dragging.

Anchors are tested in a straight line, when holding capacity is defined as the tension necessary to drag, pull the anchor through the seabed. (From which you can easily derive holding capacity per kg ) For anchors with a hold, commensurate with the size of vessel, much higher than the tension that would be produced by the vessel in stronger winds - then holding capacity IN A STRAIGHT LINE is not inadequate - so other factors are important - yawing, horsing, poor holding, inadequately set, fouled toe etc etc???

If you dive on your anchor when your chain is thrashing the seabed, thrashing sounds a bit extreme but the chain lifts and falls, and you touch the anchor, (just touch any exposed portion) you will find it twitches. A moving anchor reduces the shear strength of the seabed surrounding the anchor (according to the US Navy). If you dive on your anchors when you anchor in a 'V' you will find the anchors twitch much less. This is subjective but I cannot think of a way of quantifying it - so you need to try yourselves

If you cannot see your anchor a steel rod, screwdriver works well. Don't ask how I know.

I'm of the belief that anchoring in a 'V' offers a more comfortable environment, less veering, and offers more security - but others, obviously, have differing experiences - but I have tested both.

Jonathan

 

[RupertW]

You would reduce the snatching by using a more elastic snubber (or higher scope). If you are restricted with space - the 'better' snubber is one answer.

We find anchoring in a 'V' or fork reduces the extremes of veering, so the veering angle reduces (I note others do not find this) - but it works for us - and is one reason we continue with the practice.

Jonathan

Thanks - that's exactly what I do a mixture of a heavy rubber snubber (which works in mild to moderate conditions) on a long nylon line which I put out if I have room. But a V if possible reduces the veering immediately and makes it a much shorter veer therefore with less angle change and less momentum built up. If I'm close to alone in an anchorage which is rare.

 

[NormanS]

I wonder if long snubbers actually increase the tendency to yaw? I can see how long snubbers reduce snatching, but yawing, I'm not so sure.
I have a riding sail on my mizzen, which greatly reduces yawing. I only use it occasionally, if and when I think it will help.
I do sometimes use two anchors in a Vee, but not if I expect only 25-30 knots of wind! When I lay out the second anchor, either using the engine, or preferably by dinghy (if I haven't left it too late) I put a tripping line and buoy on it. This means that if for instance I had to clear out, I can just slip the rode, and concentrate on retrieving one anchor at a time.
There are times that it is very reassuring to have two anchors down, even if the second one is theoretically not needed.
If I expect bad weather, I avoid popular crowded anchorages like the plague. I like to have plenty of room to use as much chain as I like, and not to have to worry about other boats possibly becoming a hazard to my safety and security.

 

[thinwater]

What do you do when the wind decides to suddenly change direction? Seems a good recipe to get tangled in your own gear and even if not, time consuming to pick up if you need to leave in a hurry.

You won't get tangled if you do it correctly, and it won't take long to recover. I've used a V nearly 100 times, spun hundreds of 360s (as many as 12 while eating dinner, by one count!) and never tangled. I would not say I use it often--maybe 5%--but I've anchored a lot in tidal areas, often in tight spots, over many years.

Join the rodes well BEFORE the roller and only bring one rode back to the boat. A Y, not a V. Clip on an extension to recover, if needed.

Feed both rodes from lockers and you'll be hating life.

---

A snubber of any reasonable length is NOT going to increase yawing measurably. I've tested using all nylon vs. all polyester (same day--formal testing), and the difference was very small. That said there are two more rode factors.

* Chain sometimes tested WORSE than rope. In specific wind ranges, when the catenary was stretching out, it offers more stretch than nylon and a hard stop at the end. I'm unconvinced chain is always better for yawing, just different. It's better in light winds.
* I've switched to a Dyneema bridle for my tri. I don't need shock absorption since on this boat I use all-nylon, and the Dyneema does not stretch to one side. Thus, it is more stable.

 

[thinwater]

Apologies for the single minded threads

How many anchor use a 'V' or fork anchoring, for what ever reason. Mention has been made of setting 2 anchors, forward of the yacht (so not a kedge, not a Bahamian moor) - I wondered how common the practice.

We do it when winds are going to be consistently in one dominant direction, forecast winds will be over 25/30 knots and we expect to measure those windspeed at the mast head - many of our anchorages are not particularly sheltered from wind being low lying. I have no idea if we need to use 2 anchors - it simply seems prudent to do so and its easy, or we find it easy. If the winds are going to be 25 knots, only, we might not set 2 anchors but have the second anchor and its rode sitting ready, should the forecast be an 'underestimate', on the bow. If the winds are going to be 25/30 knots this actually means for the east coast of Australia we might be pinned into an anchorage for 2-4 days and being able to trek up a hill (all day) and the 'V' offer peace of mind - even if its unnecessary.

Reiterating we sail a 38' cat with a 22'6" beam, 7t and use 6mm chain (max 75m rode) and 30m snubbers, which we can extend from 10m to 30m. We generally anchor in 4-6m depths, high tide, and 1m from bow roller to sealevel and would commonly aim for a 5:1 scope. Our second rode is 15m of 6mm chain and 40mm of 12mm 3 ply nylon. We can set our second anchor either from the bow or using a dinghy. Our anchors are all alloy, all weigh 8kg and are Fortress, Excel and Spade (we carry the Excel on the bow roller).

I cannot recall the last time we dragged - but it was when we used a CQR copy as a primary. We did drag with our Excel, or more accurately could not get it to set, in thin mud (near the entrance to the Gordon River in Tasmania) when we had a Storm warning and replaced the Excel with a Fortress (and the winds never materialised) we were well sheltered.

So how common is the practice of anchoring in a 'V'

Jonathan

I've never had a boat that naturally yawed much (unless I didn't use a bridle). I believe you have a furled reacher on a sprit. That was very bad in my testing. It might be the primary problem.

One posibility is a Fin-delta riding sail, if you can get it far enough back. You want a Y-shaped sail--single leach sails did not work for me. This will balance the reacher.

The first thing I would try is a hammerlock mooring. Even easier, easy to recover, and VERY effective. I never tried it on the PDQ, but I doubt it needs to be off the bridle. A 15# Claw is all you need, on 1.5-1 scope. Scope can be increased, deploying it at one extreme of swing. It's all part of the continum of V-anchoring, I suppose, but the function here is different. You expect it to drag.

 

[NormanS]

You won't get tangled if you do it correctly, and it won't take long to recover. I've used a V nearly 100 times, spun hundreds of 360s (as many as 12 while eating dinner, by one count!) and never tangled. I would not say I use it often--maybe 5%--but I've anchored a lot in tidal areas, often in tight spots, over many years.

Join the rodes well BEFORE the roller and only bring one rode back to the boat. A Y, not a V. Clip on an extension to recover, if needed.

Feed both rodes from lockers and you'll be hating life.

---

A snubber of any reasonable length is NOT going to increase yawing measurably. I've tested using all nylon vs. all polyester (same day--formal testing), and the difference was very small. That said there are two more rode factors.

* Chain sometimes tested WORSE than rope. In specific wind ranges, when the catenary was stretching out, it offers more stretch than nylon and a hard stop at the end. I'm unconvinced chain is always better for yawing, just different. It's better in light winds.
* I've switched to a Dyneema bridle for my tri. I don't need shock absorption since on this boat I use all-nylon, and the Dyneema does not stretch to one side. Thus, it is more stable.

You can hardly expect to get a useful catenary in five feet of water!

 

[thinwater]

You can hardly expect to get a useful catenary in five feet of water!

The problems were in deeper water (3 meters) where there was catenary. 5 feet, no problem either way. It was only in certain gusty conditions, when the chain would sink and then rise. In fact, this takes some depth to happen... obviously. Others have reported the same, being sling-shotted by chain.

It's rather obvious, if you think about the math. Nylon will only stretch 2-4 in light/moderate winds, but the chain length can change 5-10 feet with a harder stop at the end.

Sorry, missed me. I like all chain. Used it for many years. But it's not magical. Chain has one set of maths, rope a different set.