Foreign Flagged boat in Greece sailed by EU citizen

[Spiv]

Hello friends,

I have dual citizenship, Australia and Italy.
I reside in Australia
My boat has Australian flag and, at the moment, she is on hardstand in Greece.
I am in Australia, but going to Greece in 2 weeks.

I understand that:
1- if I enter Greece with my AU passport, I can stay in Greece (or EU) for 90 days only (Shengen rule). The boat gets a Transit Log for 18 months.
2- if I enter Greece as an EU citizen I can stay in Greece indefinitely, but my boat will only get a Transit Log for 1 months before it's due for VAT.

Now, I remember reading that, as a EU citizen, if I can prove that I reside OUT of the EU for more than 6 months, then my boat will get an 18 months Transit log and I don't have to worry about Shengen.

Is that true?
Where can I get and print the regulation so that I can show a reluctant Custom Officer in Greece?

Thank you for reading so far and I would really appreciate any help.

Cheers
Spiv

Edited: 18 months Transit log, not 180 days.....

 

[Tranona]

You are correct. You will be using Temporary Admission FOR YOUR BOAT as a non resident - it is nothing to do with citizenship or flag of registration. Nor importantly actually anything to do the Greek Transit log. TA is an EU rule that is part of the VAT rules. If you use that rule to avoid VAT as a non resident then you have a limit of 18 months before you have to leave the EU and re-enter to start the clock again.

Your rights under Schengen for travel are nothing to do with VAT on boats. If your Italian passport allows you unlimited stay in the EU then you can use your boat as long as you like subject to the 18 month rule.

Suspect you may have difficulty in convincing Greek officials of the difference between Schengen rules for people, VAT rules for boats and their own rules for transit logs (which are nothing to do with the EU - and in fact contested because as originally proposed conflicted with the EU freedom of circulation VAT rules!).

I doubt you will find anything written that confirms what you say is true. Officials will have difficulty in recognising that an EU citizen can own a "third country" boat and keep it in Greece under TA as they tend to see citizenship of owner and flag of registration as the same thing when VAT rules use residence as the determinant for VAT rules. So I think you will just have to explain to them - although to be honest if you are flying in how are they to know that you entered using your Italian passport? Use your Australian when when getting your transit log.

You don't say how you are dealing with the 18 months. I had heard that Greece is only counting the time the boat has a transit log as being towards the 18 months which is different from other states like Italy which require the boat to physically leave territorial waters and re-enter every 18 months, irrespective of whether the boat is used or not.

Hope this helps and good luck.

 

[Irish Rover]

I'm an Irish [so EU] citizen but I'm full time resident in Türkiye. I regularly visit Greece with my [EU VAT not paid] boat and have no difficulty obtaining a transit log. I generally show my Turkish ID card [permanent residency card] and a household bill with my name and address on it. I've occasionally been asked for my phone number - I'm assuming to confirm it was a Turkish number. I've always found Greek customs very professional and easy to deal with.

Edit - I should have said I enter on my Irush passport as it's the only one I have.

 

[Mistroma]

I'm an Irish [so EU] citizen but I'm full time resident in Türkiye. I regularly visit Greece with my [EU VAT not paid] boat and have no difficulty obtaining a transit log. I generally show my Turkish ID card [permanent residency card] and a household bill with my name and address on it. I've occasionally been asked for my phone number - I'm assuming to confirm it was a Turkish number. I've always found Greek customs very professional and easy to deal with.

Edit - I should have said I enter on my Irish passport as it's the only one I have.

Probably a good idea to show your Turkish ID instead of your Irish passport.

N.B. OP mentioned 180 day transit log and I think he meant 18 months. It's also possible to get an Unlimited Transit Log without an expiration date.

I have UK and Irish passports, my wife has a Greek residence permit (as wife of an EU citizen) and a UK passport. We entered Greece on my Irish passport and her residence card. Neither of our UK passports have been stamped, mine not shown and hers shown with Greek residence card.

We are just about to start the process of getting a Transit log and have been told to use our UK passports as we are joint owners of a UK flagged, Part 1 registered vessel.

Things might get tricky If I use my Irish passport and my wife's UK passport as I might have to remove my half of the boat D) from Greece within a month or pay VAT. Lack of stamps on either UK passport might be a problem if noticed by the authorities. I wonder what would happen if I wrote a note transferring ownership to my wife (expect I'd need to alter Part 1 and pay fees).

Safest bet seems to be to present both UK passports via an agent who seems to think emailed copies will be OK for her to use. If it does become and issue we might be able to nominate my wife as the user (or some similar term) with me as the skipper. Not certain of that one. The agent will handle this for 300 euro (400 if we'd been in Levkas).

The other option would be to get a normal Transit Log for around 30 euro and just leave Greece every 18 months. I think that I still need to visit the Port Police regularly with both types of Transit Log. Even with the Unlimited Transit Log. I think that I also lose VAT paid status if I sail to Italy for a day and return to Greece.

I also worry about a PP somewhere noticing my Irish passport in connection with an Unlimited Transit Log. I can't just show my unstamped UK passport as he'd think I'd entered illegally and possibly stayed too long.

Greek authorities have made a right mess of mixing up vessel's state of registry, owner's nationality and VAT status, as Tranona mentioned.

Fun isn't it.

 

[Thresher]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this thread but it seems that the expertise is right here.. I was planning to take my UK registered boat down to Spain and spent the winter there for more than 90 days using my newly acquired Irish passport. Could I get into some sort of trouble?

 

[Tranona]

I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this thread but it seems that the expertise is right here.. I was planning to take my UK registered boat down to Spain and spent the winter there for more than 90 days using my newly acquired Irish passport. Could I get into some sort of trouble?

It is not the registration of the boat, nor your citizenship that is important. For the boat, if it is "UK VAT paid" -that is it was in the UK on 31/12/20 rather than in the EU, and you are UK resident then you can keep the boat in the EU for up to 18 months under TA as explained earlier. Then you have to take it out and re-enter. The 18 months starts when you clear into the EU. Your rights to stay are governed by the Schengen rules which are nothing to do with the boat. However as I pointed out earlier some customs locally may have difficulty with this distinction, although as Irish Rover says he has been doing similar to you from Turkey to Greece without problems.

This type of situation is one of the complications arising from Brexit, made more complex by the overlap between the Common Travel Area and Schengen which allows Irish citizens to have virtually equal rights in terms of freedom of movement in both the UK and EU, but if resident in the UK their boat is "third country" from a VAT point of view.

 

[Spiv]

You are correct. You will be using Temporary Admission FOR YOUR BOAT as a non resident - it is nothing to do with citizenship or flag of registration. Nor importantly actually anything to do the Greek Transit log. TA is an EU rule that is part of the VAT rules. If you use that rule to avoid VAT as a non resident then you have a limit of 18 months before you have to leave the EU and re-enter to start the clock again.

Great explanation, thanks, it all makes sense now.

- although to be honest if you are flying in how are they to know that you entered using your Italian passport? Use your Australian when when getting your transit log.

You don't say how you are dealing with the 18 months. I had heard that Greece is only counting the time the boat has a transit log as being towards the 18 months which is different from other states like Italy which require the boat to physically leave territorial waters and re-enter every 18 months, irrespective of whether the boat is used or not.

Hope this helps and good luck.

The boat is in Chios, the Transit Log was issued last Sep for 18 months, but it is now with Customs and in "suspension" as the boat is on the hardstand. I was told that the boat has 18 months 'in the water', so (allegedly) the time will start ticking when I put her back in the drink....
Now as you said, it all can get complicated.

Two years ago I was nearly fined close to 2000EU in Rhodes for showing my AU passport when trying to exit to go to Turkey, it turned out that I was deemed an Illegal Immigrant, because I never entered the EU with my AU passport. Fortunately they revoked it when I told them that I was travelling with my IT passport.

It becomes a little tricky when arriving by boat as the PP stamps your passport and Customs issues your TL according to your Citizenship 18 months for 'third country' and 30 days for EU citizen.
I have not tested the RESIDENCE rule for the TA and the issuing of the TL, but I intend to ask Customs when I get there by air and entering with my EU passport.
I will bring my driver's license, bank and utilities statements showing that my residence is in AU.
I found the authorities in Chios most friendly and helpful, way better than busy islands like Rhodes.
I will be moving between Greece and Turkey, so the 18 months TL is not an issue, the 30 days TL would be a big issue....

 

[Irish Rover]

@Spiv You don't seem to be taking on board what you're being told - citizenship is totally irrelevant in this context. As a non EU resident you are entitled to TA for 18 months.
Without complicating matters I believe even an EU resident can get a 30 day Transit log for a VAT unpaid boat. I was offered this facility when I first bought my boat in Greece and showed my Irish passport - when I proved my residence they issued an 18 month log. The 30 days is to allow you time to take the boat out of the EU.

 

[Spiv]

@Spiv You don't seem to be taking on board what you're being told - citizenship is totally irrelevant in this context. As a non EU resident you are entitled to TA for 18 months.
Without complicating matters I believe even an EU resident can get a 30 day Transit log for a VAT unpaid boat. I was offered this facility when I first bought my boat in Greece and showed my Irish passport - when I proved my residence they issued an 18 month log. The 30 days is to allow you time to take the boat out of the EU.

Sorry, but you miss read my earlier message. I totally understood Tranona explanation and noted that above:
[ "Great explanation, thanks, it all makes sense now." ]

I definitely do not want a 30 day transit log as I intend to be in Greece at least 3 months.

 

[Irish Rover]

Sorry, but you miss read my earlier message. I totally understood Tranona explanation and noted that above:
[ "Great explanation, thanks, it all makes sense now." ]

I definitely do not want a 30 day transit log as I intend to be in Greece at least 3 months.

The followining quote from you indicates you don't understand
"It becomes a little tricky when arriving by boat as the PP stamps your passport and Customs issues your TL according to your Citizenship 18 months for 'third country' and 30 days for EU citizen".
I repeat citizenship is irrelevant.

 

[st599]

Is there not an issue with becoming a tax resident by dint of time in country?

 

[Spiv]

The followining quote from you indicates you don't understand
"It becomes a little tricky when arriving by boat as the PP stamps your passport and Customs issues your TL according to your Citizenship 18 months for 'third country' and 30 days for EU citizen".
I repeat citizenship is irrelevant.

You are wasting your time and mine by being irritant and you have proven that you are the one that doesn't fully understand what is going on.
And you are definitely not helping me or anyone else reading these posts.
I will not entertain responding to you again.

 

[Mistroma]

The followining quote from you indicates you don't understand
"It becomes a little tricky when arriving by boat as the PP stamps your passport and Customs issues your TL according to your Citizenship 18 months for 'third country' and 30 days for EU citizen".
I repeat citizenship is irrelevant.

Sounds as if it is relevant. I entered Greece on an Irish passport and would need to remove my boat from Greece within a month if I went to the PP and asked for a Transit Log. I can get a Transit Log for 18 months or unlimited if I use my UK passport but it does not have an entry stamp and means I'm in Greece illegally. I can get around that by showing my Irish passport (plus veveosi engrafis) and remain in Greece legally for as long as I like, but boat needs to leave in 1 month or have VAT paid.

I said it's a little more complicated for me as my wife owns 50% and she also has an unstamped UK passport as she used her residence card to enter Greece.

Problem is Greece mixing up owner's nationality, VAT status and vessel's flag. My boat was VAT paid in UK, in Greece at end of 2020 and therefore EU VAT paid status. I can therefore get an unlimited transit log but lose that if I sail to Italy where the boat should still have EU VAT paid status. I lose the EU VAT paid status in Greece if I sail back and must then get an 18 month transit log (or 1 month if they decide I'm an EU citizen). I think that was the situation last year, perhaps it has changed.

 

[billskip]

Is there not an issue with becoming a tax resident by dint of time in country?

In Spain its 183 days, also in Spain but maybe other countries (I think Portugal) maybe, it is obligatory to register your presence if stay is more than 90 days for anyone, now because you can drive around Europe and nobody really knows where you are (you think) one thing is for sure with a boat you are logging in and out so they know if you have exceed your 90 days even if you have eu passport/residence in another eu country.

 

[Mistroma]

In Spain its 183 days, also in Spain but maybe other countries (I think Portugal) maybe, it is obligatory to register your presence if stay is more than 90 days for anyone, now because you can drive around Europe and nobody really knows where you are (you think) one thing is for sure with a boat you are logging in and out so they know if you have exceed your 90 days even if you have eu passport/residence in another eu country.

I was going to post similar comment for Greece. OP has probably registered already and has a veveosi engrafis from the local police (not Port Police). It never expires and remains valid for future visits. I think it's also 183 days in Greece but not usually a problem if you have no income originating in Greece and you file a Nil tax submission every year. I avoid that by staying less than 183 days (mostly ) and there aren't any checks yet.

 

[Tranona]

Sounds as if it is relevant. I entered Greece on an Irish passport and would need to remove my boat from Greece within a month if I went to the PP and asked for a Transit Log. I can get a Transit Log for 18 months or unlimited if I use my UK passport but it does not have an entry stamp and means I'm in Greece illegally. I can get around that by showing my Irish passport (plus veveosi engrafis) and remain in Greece legally for as long as I like, but boat needs to leave in 1 month or have VAT paid.

I said it's a little more complicated for me as my wife owns 50% and she also has an unstamped UK passport as she used her residence card to enter Greece.

Problem is Greece mixing up owner's nationality, VAT status and vessel's flag. My boat was VAT paid in UK, in Greece at end of 2020 and therefore EU VAT paid status. I can therefore get an unlimited transit log but lose that if I sail to Italy where the boat should still have EU VAT paid status. I lose the EU VAT paid status in Greece if I sail back and must then get an 18 month transit log (or 1 month if they decide I'm an EU citizen). I think that was the situation last year, perhaps it has changed.

Your boat, from what you say is EU VAT paid under the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement. Therefore it has free circulation across thbe EU. You just need to keep your evidence that it was there on the day. There is no such thing as VAT paid (or unpaid) in Greece that is different from the EU. Chris_Robb who posts here or the CA will give you advice on what to do to keep your boat there as they took the issue to the Commission.

You are right the Greeks have difficulty with the concept that boat status is an EU matter and independent of the owners nationality or residence or its flag state. Complicated by their Transit Log system which is arguably contrary to EU law because it restricts free movement of EU "goods" - that is the boat. I think you are confusing VAT paid status with the Greek transit log rules in saying that it "loses" something by going to Italy and back - it does not.

There is no need for you to leave Greece, no restriction on taking it to another EU state and returning, and no restriction on leaving the EU and returning using the TA rule, just like any other EU boat. The only way that the boat's status would change is if you brought it back to the UK where if you are resident here you would have to pay VAT again. However it would retain its EU status provided you returned to the EU every 3 years under the EU Returned Goods Relief rules.

 

[Mistroma]

Thanks for the clarification, I was just using VAT paid to indicate free circulation but better to use the correct terminology.

Rules seemed fairly clear that if get an unlimited transit log (because boat was in Greece at end of 2020) and leave Greek waters, I need to get an 18 month Transit Log. My boat will have lost previous status and will then be a third-country yacht. VAT would then be payable in Greece if sold her there and also fine if I didn't leave within 18 months use.

I had a link somewhere and will try to find it again. It may have changed since I last checked but thought it was still the same.

I know that's not how it's meant to work and that's why I thought a trip to Italy wouldn't be a problem with need to do a TI there. However, it's a problem for the return trip.

 

[Tranona]

Your boat cannot lose its EU VAT status and become a third country boat unless it leaves the EU for at least 3 years (which is the normal RGR limit). That is EU rules and not something the Greeks can unilaterally change. Really do suggest you talk to the CA or Chris Robb as they have sorted this out with Greek customs.

 

[Irish Rover]

You are wasting your time and mine by being irritant and you have proven that you are the one that doesn't fully understand what is going on.
And you are definitely not helping me or anyone else reading these posts.
I will not entertain responding to you again.

I'm sorry for being an irritant and I'm sorry for trying to help. As you may come to realise when you've been on the forum a bit longer we try to help each other out by sharing knowledge and experience. This is not a pissing contest. If you wish to ignore or discount what I've posted that's your prerogative. As I said I was just trying to be helpful.

 

[Mistroma]

Your boat cannot lose its EU VAT status and become a third country boat unless it leaves the EU for at least 3 years (which is the normal RGR limit). That is EU rules and not something the Greeks can unilaterally change. Really do suggest you talk to the CA or Chris Robb as they have sorted this out with Greek customs.

Yes, I thought that was the case but had read the CA comment at News on Greek Transit Logs | CA

It said:
UK VAT will not be recognised – except where the owner is Established (resident) in Greece of the EU. A UTL will be issued on proving VAT.
On leaving Greek waters and returning. you will be treated as a third-country yacht and issued an 18-month Transit Log.
BUT those who are “established” in Greece cannot use temporary Import and will be given a one month TL. That means the "Resident" will have to leave Greece!

Certain I read the same thing elsewhere but can't remember the link.

However, I did see CA page was posted on 1st April, 2021 and therefore dated. I'll ask Chris if there's been an update, thanks