Ford XLD 1800 diesel engine

[higler]

I dont understand how any defect in the lubrication system can result in oil being discharged via the sump pump.

it has been suggested that fractured oil galley might, but that would just return oil to the sump from which it is being drawn by the oil pump
A blockage might cause an highish oil pressure but it should be controlled by the pressure relief valve. it still wont cause the oil to be ejected.

I am thinking about the vacuum pump. I am surprised they don't remove it as part of the marinisation but I guess there's a reason why not.

I had a 1600 version long ago but I forget what the vac pump was like or where it discharged too ( the 1800 might be different anyway).
If it's suction, which would normally be connected to the brake servo, was open it would be pumping air somewhere. Into the inlet manifold ??. IIRC that is where the crankcase breather is connected so perhaps it can be blowing air back through the breather .... but I doubt it.


The low oil pressure now is a bit of a bummer. Must be due, I would think, to a wrecked bearing due to oil starvation or perhaps the oil pump is buggered.

If there is enough oil pressure to risk running the engine I think I would pull the crankcase breather hoses off while it is running to see what is blowing where.

Any chance there is problem with an inlet valve and that is resulting in pressure build up in the manifold and the breather ??

Timing of the camshaft OK ??

I though these engines were bullet proof .... my 1600 outlasted the car it was fitted in with no major troubles at all.

Your thinking is in line with mine ie- the vacuum pump is conected to a pipe that then conects to the breather pipe, but the plunger is not conected to anything, just lays in its hole but it did appear to be sticky when i checked it, I was told it wouldnt cause the problem. Camshaft timings spot on. Inlet valve were all moving so. I am renewing the oil pump as its one part that looks ok but can and I have had it in the past when they can be faulty. Bullet proof, so ive been told hopefully when I rebuild this one I can say the same. At the moment this engine is totally stripped and i keep going over it and its not talking to me, usually something jumps out and you find the fault ,not this time.

 

[SailorBill]

I dont understand how any defect in the lubrication system can result in oil being discharged via the sump pump.

it has been suggested that fractured oil galley might, but that would just return oil to the sump from which it is being drawn by the oil pump
A blockage might cause an highish oil pressure but it should be controlled by the pressure relief valve. it still wont cause the oil to be ejected............................

After reading through all the other posts I was scratching my head and clutching at straws Vic. The same as everyone else.

 

[duncanmack]

Haven't worked on one of these for years, but something about the fault niggled away. Have had a look at the workshop manual and refreshed my memory.

There is a non return valve on the breather system. It lives in the rocker cover. If it is clogged then it will pressurise the crankcase and dump the oil through your pump. Depending on the age of the engine the rocker cover may have a baffle plate which makes access to the valve a bit difficult (actually impossible unless you cut the baffle plate open). Used to have to do this quite often.

If the fault has suddenly appeared, which seems to be the case, then my money is on this being the problem.

 

[higler]

Haven't worked on one of these for years, but something about the fault niggled away. Have had a look at the workshop manual and refreshed my memory.

There is a non return valve on the breather system. It lives in the rocker cover. If it is clogged then it will pressurise the crankcase and dump the oil through your pump. Depending on the age of the engine the rocker cover may have a baffle plate which makes access to the valve a bit difficult (actually impossible unless you cut the baffle plate open). Used to have to do this quite often.

If the fault has suddenly appeared, which seems to be the case, then my money is on this being the problem.

Just been inspecting the top end and checked the breather inlet--all clear, then checked the exit to the inlet manifold all clear, the taken off the inlet manifold to check the back tube which feeds in to the inlet at no 1 all clear, once again I come back to the piston rings that were not staggered enough---could pressure be transfered back into the sump through this, they were almost in line its now the only thing that I can come up with.

 

[duncanmack]

... once again I come back to the piston rings that were not staggered enough---could pressure be transfered back into the sump through this, they were almost in line its now the only thing that I can come up with.

Yes, and if the breather system can't cope with the crankcase pressure then it will empty the sump via the pump for changing the oil. The sump pump has just a simple one-way flap valve.

There are only 2 ways the crankcase can be excessively pressurised.
1. Breather system blocked - allowing "normal" crankcase pressure to be exceeded.
2. Excessive combustion gasses getting into the sump by a) excessive piston blow-by or b) Combustion gasses getting past the head gasket and into a gallery (oil feed or drain) leading back to the sump. A crack in the head into an oil gallery will do the same.

Get the head pressure checked. If OK then reassemble engine with rings properly staggered and do a blow-by check on each cylinder with compressed air. See if there is a leak and where to. If it checks out then the only thing left is to either remove the sump pump or put a cock in the line from the sump to the pump to stop the oil getting out.

Thought - if there is a crack into an oil feed gallery then your oil pressure will be loopy. Frothy oil!

Keep us posted!

 

[NickRobinson]

Can you confirm some things?

I think you said that the engine dumped it's oil then lost oil pressure.

1 When you refilled it did the oil pressure return (before the level dropped too far again) or was it no good immediately, suggesting (further) damage from the previous run?

2 Did you try a compression test to see if the rings might be allowing huge breathing/blow by into the sump?

3 As the block is in bits at the moment, have you tried crack testing? I realise that most cracks would involve water jackets rather than the sump.

N

 

[higler]

Yes, and if the breather system can't cope with the crankcase pressure then it will empty the sump via the pump for changing the oil. The sump pump has just a simple one-way flap valve.

There are only 2 ways the crankcase can be excessively pressurised.
1. Breather system blocked - allowing "normal" crankcase pressure to be exceeded.
2. Excessive combustion gasses getting into the sump by a) excessive piston blow-by or b) Combustion gasses getting past the head gasket and into a gallery (oil feed or drain) leading back to the sump. A crack in the head into an oil gallery will do the same.

Get the head pressure checked. If OK then reassemble engine with rings properly staggered and do a blow-by check on each cylinder with compressed air. See if there is a leak and where to. If it checks out then the only thing left is to either remove the sump pump or put a cock in the line from the sump to the pump to stop the oil getting out.

Thought - if there is a crack into an oil feed gallery then your oil pressure will be loopy. Frothy oil!

Keep us posted![/QUOTE

Just come from seeing a commercial mechanic and he has thrown up some more possibilities, one being bore wash a possible cause, something that can come about by exessive fuel being pumped in to the bore and eroding the rings causing gasses to pass. Anther being the engine sat in the boat for 4 years and we had a bad winter last year so I really have to do a lot more searching to find out if maybe there areany cracks visible that could be the trouble--all the obvious I have already been through time and again so it looks like a different tack must be adopted.

 

[higler]

Can you confirm some things?

I think you said that the engine dumped it's oil then lost oil pressure.

1 When you refilled it did the oil pressure return (before the level dropped too far again) or was it no good immediately, suggesting (further) damage from the previous run?

2 Did you try a compression test to see if the rings might be allowing huge breathing/blow by into the sump?

3 As the block is in bits at the moment, have you tried crack testing? I realise that most cracks would involve water jackets rather than the sump.

N

I didnt try a compression test but am checking the ring gaps to see if there is any excessive wear from them, cracks I hadnt considered but am now going that route, The oil pressure dropped swiftly but ive checked the bearing main and crank and no visible wear, so I will be renewing the oil pump when I reasemble. Ive had so much feedback from all you guys and im really grateful for that Thanks big time!!

 

[higler]

just been digging about in manuals, there is a change to the oil filler cap depending upon the application, automotive or industrial, I may be that the incorrect filler cap is fitted this would cause a pressurisation of the crankcase.

Thanks for checking but no the filler cap wouldnt be the problem

 

[pappaecho]

As I posted earlier about the need for blanking the vacuum system. You do not need any vacuum system on a marine diesel.

In the 1970s I had a blocked breather valve on an Avenger 1500. It cause all sorts of loss of power and excess fuel consumption. It did not cause a loss of oil, though in fairness the engine did not have a sump pump.

As the parts were supplied by Lancing Marine and they have long experience with Ford diesel engines, I still think talking to them would be the best option.#

My Beta engine has a lock on the sump pump to prevent " blowback" You push and twist to lock. Does yours?

 

[Sandyman]

What a strange problem. It just doesn't make sense. Drives ya nuts when it should be so obvious but you cant see the cause.

Are you 100% certain the oil is coming out through the sump pump ? When the oil escapes does it come out in spurts or a continuous flow ? You prob don't know that but just trying to think on different lines of thought.

 

[VicS]

What a strange problem. It just doesn't make sense. Drives ya nuts when it should be so obvious but you cant see the cause.

Are you 100% certain the oil is coming out through the sump pump ? When the oil escapes does it come out in spurts or a continuous flow ? You prob don't know that but just trying to think on different lines of thought.

I think there was reference in one of the early posts to putting a foot on the outlet to stem the flow!

The implication was that it was coming out under some pressure !

No chance that the pump was running I suppose or is that being silly

 

[Sandyman]

I think there was reference in one of the early posts to putting a foot on the outlet to stem the flow!

The implication was that it was coming out under some pressure !

No chance that the pump was running I suppose or is that being silly

Just a thought.............if putting a foot on the outlet to stem the flow and yet the oil still escaped under pressure, would this not have been enough to blow the dipstick out ?
Maybe I'm not thinking along the right lines but I cannot see what else could be causing this considering the tests the OP has carried out so far.

 

[VicS]

would this not have been enough to blow the dipstick out ?

Maybe maybe not. I forget what the dipstick is like on these.

it might just dislodge it a bit and you might get bit of oil blown out. If the sump pump outlet is spewing oil full bore you may not notice a bit being blown out around the dipstick!

 

[higler]

As I posted earlier about the need for blanking the vacuum system. You do not need any vacuum system on a marine diesel.

In the 1970s I had a blocked breather valve on an Avenger 1500. It cause all sorts of loss of power and excess fuel consumption. It did not cause a loss of oil, though in fairness the engine did not have a sump pump.

As the parts were supplied by Lancing Marine and they have long experience with Ford diesel engines, I still think talking to them would be the best option.#

My Beta engine has a lock on the sump pump to prevent " blowback" You push and twist to lock. Does yours?

I spoke to Mike Bellamy at lancing marine he came up with what to most of us as the obvious reasons, those I had already checked, but I cant seem to track it down and its getting really frustrating.

 

[higler]

Just a thought.............if putting a foot on the outlet to stem the flow and yet the oil still escaped under pressure, would this not have been enough to blow the dipstick out ?
Maybe I'm not thinking along the right lines but I cannot see what else could be causing this considering the tests the OP has carried out so far.

To be really honest he had his foot on the pump but feel that he may have just wanted to see if it would still pump out, but said he didnt. Got to believe what he said but do wonder, as I wasnt in a grand mood at the time. Ive got a number of people scratching their heads over this one--hopefully someone will hit on it, everything I am told if I havent already tried it im straight into the garage and checking it out, my wife thinks ive lost it--maybe.

 

[higler]

I think there was reference in one of the early posts to putting a foot on the outlet to stem the flow!

The implication was that it was coming out under some pressure !

No chance that the pump was running I suppose or is that being silly

The pump is manual so nothing to push it out other than back pressure, and it did pour out dumped a gallon in a couple of minutes.

 

[higler]

Maybe maybe not. I forget what the dipstick is like on these.

it might just dislodge it a bit and you might get bit of oil blown out. If the sump pump outlet is spewing oil full bore you may not notice a bit being blown out around the dipstick!

Nothing from the dipstick at all.

 

[higler]

Gents I would like to thank you all for the input you have all put forward, its quite obvious that the most common reasons for this problem are not so on this occasion. I am now going to go direct to ford engine technical advisors and see what they come up with, as to do a rebuild on this engine could become rather expensive and maybe at the end have a negative outcome if this problem cant be diagnosed. Should I find out from Fords and be able to rebuild succesfully then I will post on here what the outcome was so that anyone else who may come up against this will benefit from what I may learn. Once again a big thank you all. Norman

 

[pappaecho]

I did not mention that I have a Ford 416 diesel ex Fork lift truck with the equivalent of about 1200 hours. Fitted with new cambelt, idler gear and injection pump belt in 2007 and still lying idle.
This engine runs perfectly and is available for a nominal sum, ........if all else fails