Force majeure ? CV19 yard closure

[Daydream believer]

With all these problems it just makes one wonder what would happen if a terrorist took a fishing boat on a northwest course past lands end in a SW wind whilst releasing a nerve agent into the atmosphere

Oh! - what's that you said - They just did !!
Trial run was it?

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Surely included under "Leisure Activities"? Not every activity is listed - it would be a long list.

A boatyard is a business, servicing leisure but nonetheless just a business employing real people who need jobs. Any 'shop' part should be closed, but that's all I've read in the guidelines. It's entirely up to the owner to close if they like, but I can think of many where the staff need never get close to one another, so no risk.

 

[awol]

With all these problems it just makes one wonder what would happen if a terrorist took a fishing boat on a northwest course past lands end in a SW wind whilst releasing a nerve agent into the atmosphere

Oh! - what's that you said - They just did !!
Trial run was it?

If they did they would miss all the twats in Essex. If that is all you have to wonder about amid the chaos you need your empathy filter cleaned.

 

[LittleSister]

Surely included under "Leisure Activities"? Not every activity is listed - it would be a long list.

Like lots of people, you are imagining what the regulations say, rather than looking at what they actually say.

'Leisure activities' doesn't appear in the regulations.

Here is the list of businesses forced to close:

Restaurants, including restaurants and dining rooms in hotels or members clubs.

• Cafes, including workplace canteens, but not including—
  • cafes or canteens at a hospital, care home or school;
  • prison and military canteens;
  • services providing food or drink to the homeless.
• Bars, including bars in hotels or members’ clubs.

The following businesses must remain closed:

• Public houses.
• Cinemas.
• Theatres.
• Nightclubs.
• Bingo halls.
• Concert halls.
• Museums and galleries.
• Casinos.
• Betting shops.
• Spas.
• Massage parlours.
• Indoor skating rinks.
• Indoor fitness studios, gyms, swimming pools or other indoor leisure centres

New regulations created by Secretary of State for business closure (COVID-19)

Now tell me where boatyards appear in that?

People are also advised by Government (but not regulated by law, as far as I can see), to avoid 'visits to second homes, camp sites, caravan parks or similar, whether for isolation purposes or holidays'. COVID-19 essential travel guidance

Again no mentions of boatyards or marinas.

 

[FlyingGoose]

Like lots of people, you are imagining what the regulations say, rather than looking at what they actually say.

'Leisure activities' doesn't appear in the regulations.

Here is the list of businesses forced to close:



Now tell me where boatyards appear in that?

People are also advised by Government (but not regulated by law, as far as I can see), to avoid 'visits to second homes, camp sites, caravan parks or similar, whether for isolation purposes or holidays'. COVID-19 essential travel guidance

Again no mentions of boatyards or marinas.

The word similar , can be taken as to include boat yards and marinas , I do not agree with the wording of the this as in a court it would be impossible to prosecute on the basis of similar , so in that case I agree , also essential travel has no definition to it , as what is essential to some one might not be essential to others again vague and poor wording
iT could be argued that going to check you boats lines and make sure she is ok is essential what happens if a boat breaks a mooring through lack of checks and hinders marine traffic
, just as it would be to go and check the gas is off in your holiday home and you need to close it down securely this could be defined as essential, clearly we all have opinions of what defines essential , but thank goodness we have courts to determine this rather than the YBW forum of experts

 

[penberth3]

Like lots of people, you are imagining what the regulations say, rather than looking at what they actually say.

'Leisure activities' doesn't appear in the regulations..........


Now tell me where boatyards appear in that?

People are also advised by Government (but not regulated by law, as far as I can see), to avoid 'visits to second homes, camp sites, caravan parks or similar, whether for isolation purposes or holidays'. COVID-19 essential travel guidance

Again no mentions of boatyards or marinas.

You haven't quoted the full list, the groups "Assembly and Leisure" and "Outdoor Recreation" must cover boat owners wandering around marinas and boatyards. Doesn't have to mentioned specifically.

 

[Daydream believer]

If they did they would miss all the twats in Essex. If that is all you have to wonder about amid the chaos you need your empathy filter cleaned.

Bit of a thread drift but when i made the post I had hoped that it would develop along more sensible lines.Perhaps that was beyond your comprehension.
I was going to make the comment that many years ago I was the chairman of the UK Nuclear Shelter Bureau, .
I wrote the code of practice for the-----" Design & Construction of Domestic Nuclear Shelters."
In doing thi,s I had to undertake a lot of research into what sort of attack the UK might be under at the time. I used to meet with the UK science & military arms of NATO, they made it clear that there were 2 main types of attack to the mainland that they were concerned about:-
1) Nuclear
2) Chemical
They had decided that a submarine traveling from the channel past lands end & up towards the Irish sea could release a weapon such as Anthrax ( this was mentioned when discussing the design requirements of the air filtration system) in a SW wind & cause devastation as bad as that of a targeted nuclear attack. Dangerous because of its random action. May not have been Anthrax but I think it was.

We have all seen the recent fuss that was caused by more modern chemicals from expected Russian sources in Salisbury . We also are seeing how a "relatively light" virus can bring the country to its knees.
The thought of a scenario like the ones described by NATO , all those years ago would seem like the end of mankind
The fact that a terrorist could do something similar, is not so unrealistic after all. Anthrax ( or similar) is a chemical that could be produced easily- Or so they told me in NATO. I expect that there are more modern equivalents. It was 45 years ago that I was involved

 

[sarabande]

Err, anthrax is a bacterial disease, not a chemical. It is very very easy to 'grow' it it you have a source such as a dead cow. Lots of farms have "anthrax pits" from long ago, where casualties were buried. The bacteria goes into statsis for decades, so many pits could still be active.

We must have met at some stage in our professional lives. I wrote Parish in Isolation plans for a post-nuclear scenario, and at the height of the COld War used to spend a long time underground. using monster air scrubbers to keep us safe. Vesta curry is burned in my mind....

 

[awol]

Bit of a thread drift but when i made the post I had hoped that it would develop along more sensible lines.Perhaps that was beyond your comprehension.
I was going to make the comment that many years ago I was the chairman of the UK Nuclear Shelter Bureau, .
I wrote the code of practice for the-----" Design & Construction of Domestic Nuclear Shelters."

So, the idea of hiding under a table in case of nuclear attack was yours, was it? Doesn't surprise me.

 

[Daydream believer]

Err, anthrax is a bacterial disease, not a chemical. It is very very easy to 'grow' it it you have a source such as a dead cow. Lots of farms have "anthrax pits" from long ago, where casualties were buried. The bacteria goes into statsis for decades, so many pits could still be active.

We must have met at some stage in our professional lives. I wrote Parish in Isolation plans for a post-nuclear scenario, and at the height of the COld War used to spend a long time underground. using monster air scrubbers to keep us safe. Vesta curry is burned in my mind....

I forget the exact details it was a long time ago.
I bet that a few terrorists know all about it though. They must be watching closely.

I know that Anthrax was considered low key due to the large quantities needed. However, easy to produce & spores would carry far & wide in the right atmospheric conditions
I recall the setting up of local isolation committees . Essex started county wide ones just after I did the CP. However, I did not get involved as I was running a business as well at the time. I did build a basement in my house with pipes etc ready for the filtration etc. I also had it full of stores.

 

[Daydream believer]

deleted

 

[FlyingGoose]

This is turned in to a happy and motivational thread has it not, blooming heck do we need reminded of trying to find a room in the house and what doors needed pulled of to create a shelter , gave me nightmares as a child

 

[Daydream believer]

This is turned in to a happy and motivational thread has it not, blooming heck do we need reminded of trying to find a room in the house and what doors needed pulled of to create a shelter , gave me nightmares as a child

I do not think that Sarabande felt very"happy & motivated" when he started this thread, at the though of coping another 4 months marina fees . probably having nightmares as an adult.

 

[sarabande]

DB - your work would have been seminal in protecting a large proportion of the population had Red Force gone into operation. That is something indeed to be proud of.

PS I am sure our yard will see what others are doing and come to some arrangement about the unasked for months of storage ashore..

 

[LittleSister]

You haven't quoted the full list, the groups "Assembly and Leisure" and "Outdoor Recreation" must cover boat owners wandering around marinas and boatyards. Doesn't have to mentioned specifically.

As far as I am aware I quoted the whole of the list (which I also linked to). Do quote me the bit (and source) I haven't quoted.

By the way, 'Assembly and Leisure' is a planning 'use class', including the like of bingo, concert and dance halls; swimming pools and most other indoor and outdoor recreational facilities; etc.. Note that the critical thing to be avoided in the current circumstances is not leisure itself, but assembly.

I do not agree with the wording of the this as in a court it would be impossible to prosecute on the basis of similar , so in that case I agree , also essential travel has no definition to it , as what is essential to some one might not be essential to others again vague and poor wording

The courts certainly do decide on what is 'similar' and like phrases.

With regard to 'essential travel', I can find nothing (except Minsiterial wittering) that says only essential travel is allowed. That there is guidance about what non-essential travel includes (the caravan etc. I linked to) does imply there is such an intent, but it doesn't appear to be formally stated anywhere.

That it's not easy to find a comprehensive set of guidance is itself a government failing.

The inability to distinguish between law (e.g. the formal Order closing certain retail and hospitality establishments) and advice (e.g. the 'Guidance' to the public on non-essential travel to second homes etc.) is a common one among the press and public (and likely the police when it comes to enforcement!).

 

[penberth3]

As far as I am aware I quoted the whole of the list (which I also linked to). Do quote me the bit (and source) I haven't quoted.

By the way, 'Assembly and Leisure' is a planning 'use class', including the like of bingo, concert and dance halls; swimming pools and most other indoor and outdoor recreational facilities; etc.. Note that the critical thing to be avoided in the current circumstances is not leisure itself, but assembly.



The courts certainly do decide on what is 'similar' and like phrases.

With regard to 'essential travel', I can find nothing (except Minsiterial wittering) that says only essential travel is allowed. That there is guidance about what non-essential travel includes (the caravan etc. I linked to) does imply there is such an intent, but it doesn't appear to be formally stated anywhere.

That it's not easy to find a comprehensive set of guidance is itself a government failing.

The inability to distinguish between law (e.g. the formal Order closing certain retail and hospitality establishments) and advice (e.g. the 'Guidance' to the public on non-essential travel to second homes etc.) is a common one among the press and public (and likely the police when it comes to enforcement!).

A bit of finger trouble somewhere, the second quote isn't my words.

You're still missing the "stay at home" message. I understand some legislation is imminent, hope that makes it all clear for you.

 

[LittleSister]

A bit of finger trouble somewhere, the second quote isn't my words.

My apologies. I had somehow jumbled quotes from you and from Flying Goose. I don't know what happened there. I have now edited the previous post to show the source of the quote.

You're still missing the "stay at home" message. I understand some legislation is imminent, hope that makes it all clear for you.

I am not missing the stay at home message at all. I have quoted it and linked to it elsewhere on more than one occasion in other threads. Here it is again https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others- I did not quote it above because I was highlighting that I could find nothing in the regulations to require a boatyard or marina to close, and it is not relevant to that except, I might now add, it says 'With the exception of the organisations covered above in the section on closing non-essential shops and public spaces, the Government has not required any other businesses to close – indeed it is important for business to carry on'.

It is you that might be missing the 4 exceptions in the stay at home message - shopping for basic necessities, exercise, medical/care need, and work, and that it doesn't say anything much about travel as opposed to leaving home. There is nothing in it about boatyards, nor 'essential travel' as such.

Why are you confusing matters by quoting things that aren't in the Coronavirus guidance and regulations, and using them to argue that I haven't quoted them from the guidance when they're irrelevant to and not included in it?
You are repeatedly using irrelevant categories such a 'leisure activities' and 'assembly and leisure' to criticise me unfairly, and to disrupt and confuse a useful discussion seeking to understand complex and important issues.

I'd welcome constructive criticism of what I've written, but your posts are not that.

 

[RumPunch]

I accept the rules. My boatyard has closed and is not allowing access. My boat is sitting ashore, with several dozen open / ground out osmosis blisters and the hull sanded back - hope it stays dry