Flares - redundant technology?

[Sans Bateau]

"Flares - redundant technology?"

Yes

 

[Sans Bateau]

Remember a pair of welders gloves in with the flair box.

Welders gloves?!!

An exploding flare would only effect your hands would it?

Ditch them.

 

[gjgm]

I fired a flare once at a RNLI demo, on shore, with massive gloves, and surrounded by first aid people. Wow, these things are horrendous, and guess what.. you cant put them out.
Now I m sure there are occasions where a flare is the most appropriate piece of safety equipment, but Id hate to try to use one with the boat falling about etc.
Question to ask yourself is whetehr your boating might ever put you in a situation where you might need one. Out of vhf range, out of mobile range, out fo sight of other boats etc, bad weather an so on. If you enjoy some local boating in good weather in a popular spot, I guess you have alot less need than a sailing boat a few miles away from anyone else.
So, if it adds some comfort, have one or two, but I wouldnt argue everyone should carry them.

 

[RAI]

Alternatives

Orange smoke or Dan buoy
Red hh flare or red laser/powerful torch
White rocket flare or powerful torch
Red rocket flare or red laser

.... or VHF mayday voice call
.... or DSC mayday call including GPS coordinates
.... EPIRB or PLB transmission (including GPS coordinates)

Detection of the first four are limited by weather / visual range and require visual observers who know what to do.

The VHF alternatives have constant watch by CG and ships, who know what to do.

Only the last will work reliably out in the ocean, globally, away from all shipping, out of VHF range, in all weathers and visibility.

So there seems to be an alternative for each of the pyrotechnics but no pyrotechnic alternative for the RF systems, which work independent of visibility and have greater range.

Plus all the alternatives to pyrotechnics can be tested without self destruction and present little danger to the operator or his vessel.

So personally, when I take the tender to the shops, I might carry a PLB, a mobile phone, or a hh VHF, but I will not take a box of flares. Useless unless worn.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Example Why Flares Are Not Useless

See Flaming's Post No 25, http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232859 for an example of why flares are not useless unless worn.

I believe it's prudent to have a handheld red and parachute red clipped into holders at the companionway opening for easy access.

 

[RAI]

See Flaming's Post No 25, http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232859 for an example of why flares are not useless unless worn.

Yes, it seems someone had been wearing flares in that incident, since none of them took a hh VHF or a PLB with them (probably no PLBs in those days). Or did they have the flares attached below the waterline just in case?

Then there is the small problem of the reliability of pyros, it is not very high, certainly not in the high nines.

I keep a fire extinguisher close to my flares, not that it might work very well on a pyro with its own oxygen supply.

 

[NOHOH]

Anybody else seen this?

..... http://lagosnavigators.net/button-news/Flares Article.htm.mht

I`ve given up on flares as a waste of money ....when there are better, more modern...and SAFER ways of achieving the same result.....Also...for attracting the attention of a rescue helicopter wouldn`t a masthead strobe light be a good idea? ...(if it were legal in the UK)

 

[Tommyrot]

I don't normally double-post, but with separate threads on the same subject.....

When RNLI advice changes I'll reconsider, for now I'll carry flares.

Gave up wearing them a long time ago!

 

[RAI]

..... http://lagosnavigators.net/button-news/Flares Article.htm.mht

Also...for attracting the attention of a rescue helicopter wouldn`t a masthead strobe light be a good idea? ...(if it were legal in the UK)

They are allowed on life jackets, so switch it on and hoist the jacket.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Have just checked my flare pack that came with the old boat and they're out of date so need safely disposing of (not the point of this thread).. Rather than replace them, I'm thinking do I need to considering Flares can only be used when conscious so modern manually operated technology should suffice?

I've fitted a DSC radio and wired it up to the GPS plotter + I have a mobile phone with integral GPS that I can take with me in the tender along with a Garmin Etrex CX.. I also have paper maps and a Plastimo Iris handheld compass. ...is there anything else I should consider for near shore boating i.e. within 5 miles of the coast. for example, get a 100% waterproof handheld VHF radio rather than rely on the mobile if I have to leave the boat or worse, capsize? I think the Etrex is waterproof so combine that with the handheld vhf might be a good combination if in the water.

or..... am I a crazy fool and should get some more pyro's?

many thanks Gary

p.s. recent posts suggest I've taken a HS&E pill taking the lad's out this weekend has got me thinking about this stuff in more detail.

I have thought long and hard about this.

VHF and EPIRB - will bring assistance but how long will it take?

Boats around you will almost certainly not be monitoring VHF so you won't attract their attention.

The best way to attract attention for IMMEDIATE help is still flares and rockets, so I have just spent £169 on an offshore pack.

 

[flaming]

Yes, it seems someone had been wearing flares in that incident, since none of them took a hh VHF or a PLB with them (probably no PLBs in those days). Or did they have the flares attached below the waterline just in case?

IIRC, the flares were in a buoyant container that one of the crew pushed out of the cabin as he left.
There were also some more that were in the liferaft that was secured at the stern, and just reachable with the boat upside down.

There is of course no reason why your buoyant container couldn't contain a waterproof handheld VHF, but in the water, or in a liferaft, the visual range of a parachute flare is of course considerably greater than your hand held VHF, and rather less dependant on electricity. Plus you would of course need a GPS to give an accurate position, assuming you don't happen to be right next to something identifiable.

Personally, I put a handheld VHF in the grab bag/buoyant container, and I normally have a handheld GPS in my pocket. But I also have flares in that container. Why compromise your chances of rescue if the worst happens by denying yourself one of those options?

 

[aslabend]

Having seen one of the new laser flares tested (although hardly scientifically) I can tell you now that I'm keeping my pyrotechnics until something better comes along. The new laser flares are just not obvious enough. Unless it's held really steady you just see a flash and even then you're not quite sure if you saw it, where exactly you saw it and how far off it was. With a flare it's just bleeding obvious what you've seen and whereabouts it is.

DSC is fine until you're dis-masted and an epirb tells rescuers where the epirb is which might not necessarily be where you are (PLB should do that though). No, the benefits of flares still outweighs the risks as far as I'm concerned.

 

[RAI]

..
Boats around you will almost certainly not be monitoring VHF so you won't attract their attention.

The best way to attract attention for IMMEDIATE help is still flares and rockets, so I have just spent £169 on an offshore pack.

If the boats around you are not monitoring VHF or using DSC I would bet they are not keeping much of a watch either. Plus they have to be within visual range to see anything. A rocket might theoretically be seen forever, but the visability statistics indicate a lower range capability.

Personally, in an emergency, I would start with the RF aids and work my way towards the pyros.

 

[Achillesheel]

Flares don't take up a lot of room on a boat.

If you haven't got them, you can't use them.

If you have got them, and a situation develops to a point where a flare would assist your rescue, you would be glad you've got them.

So the only downside is the cost; relative to the cost of boating, what is the problem?

 

[Tommyrot]

....and as I pointed out earlier, the people you'll be expecting to come out and find you recommend carrying them.

If you think you know better, no skin off my nose.

 

[maxi77]

..... http://lagosnavigators.net/button-news/Flares Article.htm.mht

I`ve given up on flares as a waste of money ....when there are better, more modern...and SAFER ways of achieving the same result.....Also...for attracting the attention of a rescue helicopter wouldn`t a masthead strobe light be a good idea? ...(if it were legal in the UK)

Yes the strobe on your masthead could be a good idea, but it is not an agreed solution so not every one will be looking for it, same applies to these rescue lasers, which are completely unrecognised at present and are potentially dangerous (my eyesight is at least as important as my hand)

No light or laser will tell the helo crew what the surface wind is where you are.

Now lets review some of the alternatives

Mobile Phone Patchy cover in some areas, and tend not to be waterproof.

Handheld VHF Poor range

DSC VHF great if within range of coast station but pretty useless if you have no aerial

EPIRB Very good but can take several hours for rescue to be initiated



At the end of the day yes I would like to get rid of a relatively short lifed pyrotechnic, but at present it is my longstop if all else fails. Yes they are not ideal but hey ho neither is anything else.

 

[blackbeard]

No one yet seems to have mentioned miniflares.
Short range, certainly, but they could be in your pocket when you are sailing single-handed and fall overboard ... also they could be with you in the dinghy (some yachting fatalities involve dinghy tenders).
......
I carry pinpoint flares and smokes, but I won't willingly carry rockets, far too dangerous (they have killed people) and their job is better done by an EPIRB or PLB. Especially in fog.

 

[maxi77]

No one yet seems to have mentioned miniflares.
Short range, certainly, but they could be in your pocket when you are sailing single-handed and fall overboard ... also they could be with you in the dinghy (some yachting fatalities involve dinghy tenders).
......
I carry pinpoint flares and smokes, but I won't willingly carry rockets, far too dangerous (they have killed people) and their job is better done by an EPIRB or PLB. Especially in fog.

I suspect no one has mentioned minflares becfause they are every bit as dangerous as rockets, without most of the benefits

 

[Ubergeekian]

I fired a flare once at a RNLI demo, on shore, with massive gloves, and surrounded by first aid people. Wow, these things are horrendous, and guess what.. you cant put them out.

I've used handheld reds in anger. Yes, they are bright. Putting them out is easy - you just let go. Although they do continue to burn for a few seconds as they sink ... very spooky.

Now I m sure there are occasions where a flare is the most appropriate piece of safety equipment, but Id hate to try to use one with the boat falling about etc.

The ones I used were quite easy to set off. In time if crisis I'm not going to be too squeamish about the methods I use to get help...

Question to ask yourself is whetehr your boating might ever put you in a situation where you might need one. Out of vhf range, out of mobile range, out fo sight of other boats etc, bad weather an so on.

It all depends on whether you want a way of signalling to people who can see you. Are you willing to put your faith in the Magic Red Button? Where I do most of my sailing the lifeboats are about fifty miles apart...

 

[planteater]

Every time the question of flares arises I recall the tragedy that befell Duncan MacDougall while demonstrating their use for a training video.

For me, they will always be the last resort.