Flares in France? Are they required?

[SAWDOC]

hi folks
I have read that out of date flares are a big no no in France. However with DSC VHF is there a legal requirement for a non French boat to carry in date flares while in french coastal waters?

 

[ShinyShoe]

Your own country regulation applies. So UK non commercial boat less than a big length that I forget... No requirement. But as you say if you do have them they must be in date.

Of course, it may be easier to have them that to try and explain to a jobsworth that the red ensign exempts you... Although... I suspect in the Chanel they see enough UK flagged boats to know.

 

[Hoolie]

For French registered boats a DSC radio is accepted as an alternative to flares.

 

[Tranona]

hi folks
I have read that out of date flares are a big no no in France. However with DSC VHF is there a legal requirement for a non French boat to carry in date flares while in french coastal waters?

Not required on UK registered boat, but if you have them they must all be in date.

 

[Poignard]

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/current-affairs/Pages/carriage-of-pyrotechnic-flares.aspx

 

[LittleSister]

One trusts the French police have been checking that all the flares being let off recently by 'les gilets-jaunes' are in date.

 

[jfm]

Not required on UK registered boat, but if you have them they must all be in date.

That is absolutely not a correct statement of UK law Tranona.

Above 13.7m LLL (so about 15m LOA, typically), flares are required on UK reg boats at sea. They are even required when <3miles from coast, unlike liferafts which become mandatory >3nm, and they are required for pleasure boats, not just commercial.

The UK law on this topic for 13.7m LLL boats (in class XII) consists of the following:
1. Merchant Shipping (Life-Saving Appliances For Ships Other Than Ships Of Classes III To VI(A)) Regulations 1999 (SI 1999/2721), which imposes quite a high bar on safety equipment to be carried by >13.7m LLL boats...then
2. An exemption from the above made by the MCA (on 11/09/15) pursuant to Reg 85(3) of the above, which applies only to Class XII vessels (ie most on this forum ) provided they comply with the alternative (lighter touch) conditions stipulated in the exemption, which includes carrying 4 red HH and 2 orange smoke flares.

Assuming you want to use the conditional exemption not apply the full-fat version of the law (which is your choice, but it seems sensible), the full checklist of what you need under UK law, if over 13.7m LLL, is on pages 23 onwards of this PDF. The 6 columns are, in order, inlandA, inlandB, <3 miles from coast, 3-20 miles, 20-150 and >150. https://assets.publishing.service.g...loads/attachment_data/file/460848/MGN_538.pdf

Note that I'm quoting here the source of truth, not some secondhand commentary. Page 21 onwards of the pdf IS the exemption notice ie item 2 above

These rules are mandatory UK law. Everyone with a 48 ft + boat should read the relevant column on page 23+ and have all that safety gear. If you hit trouble and don't, you're in prosecution territory. There is much waffle written on the 'net about all this and RYA's own website is far from perfect. For example you often read (not @RYA) that liferafts are not compulsory. In a 13.7m LLL boat >3nm from coast, an in date serviced liferaft is an absolute UK legal requirement.

Lastly, the UK law i quote above is not "original work": it merely enacts (cut n paste for the statutory instrument, though not 100% so far as the exemption notice is concerned ) SOLAS V into UK law. Given that most developed countries have enacted SOLAS V into their law, including France, I would expect all the above to apply also outside UK incl France, but I have not checked French law directly, so this is just a very strong hunch. Hence I expect in-date flares in France are compulsory at sea even if <3miles off the coast.

 

[jfm]

For French registered boats a DSC radio is accepted as an alternative to flares.

I very much doubt that based on the analysis I posted above, but I'll happily stand corrected and enlightened if you have the French law to quote. As a general point on this topic, there is much internet posting of comments without any proper reference back to the law, and that isn't hugely useful.

 

[jfm]

Your own country regulation applies. So UK non commercial boat less than a big length that I forget... No requirement. But as you say if you do have them they must be in date.

Of course, it may be easier to have them that to try and explain to a jobsworth that the red ensign exempts you... Although... I suspect in the Chanel they see enough UK flagged boats to know.

"Big" is 13.7m LLL in UK law. Less than that, no flares. Over that, flares are compulsory when at sea.

I have never noticed in UK law a "if you do have them they must be in date" rule, not that I've ever looked for it. Can you/tranona/anyone cite the source of truth on this please?

 

[Plum]

which applies only to Class XII vessels (ie most on this forum )

Where did you get the impression that most people on this forum have boats over 13.7m long, ie Class XII?

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk

 

[ShinyShoe]

"Big" is 13.7m LLL in UK law. Less than that, no flares. Over that, flares are compulsory when at sea.

Ooh yes... That's big for me but actually smaller than I'd have guessed!

I have never noticed in UK law a "if you do have them they must be in date" rule, not that I've ever looked for it. Can you/tranona/anyone cite the source of truth on this please?

ah no my typing is not what I meant!

I meant ... ... French law would require even a UK boat in French waters, that if it was carrying flares they be in date, even if the boat didn't need flares.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Above 13.7m LLL ....

LLL?

Yours ignorantly

JD

 

[jfm]

Where did you get the impression that most people on this forum have boats over 13.7m long, ie Class XII?

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk

Sorry - it was a hunch and an incidental comment rather than "ratio" to my post. I haven't done a study and am happy to be corrected. I hope it was clear from my post, but if not I'll say it here, that if you are under 13.7m LLL then compulsory carrying of flares/liferafts etc isn't applicable (unless you're in commercial use).

 

[jfm]

ah no my typing is not what I meant!
I meant ... ... French law would require even a UK boat in French waters, that if it was carrying flares they be in date, even if the boat didn't need flares.

Ah ok, understood. I wont ask you to cite Fr law! This statement is made often in relation to UK law (eg Tranona above) and I'd still be interested in a citation. It might be there but I've never seen it. No worries I suppose.

 

[jfm]

LLL?

Yours ignorantly

JD

Load Line Length. This is invariably shorter than LOA. you can google it but here is a rough guide:

Look at a side profile line drawing of your boat (ignoring fin keel, if awb/sail boat)
First, draw a line the full width of your sheet of paper parallel to water line, but level with hull bottom - the bottom v of a planing mobo for example (actually it is the inside of the keel, so with a GRP boat say 50mm above the outside skin of the hull along the keel, depending on the build detail).
Second, draw a parallel line, also full width of your paper, that is along weather deck. On a typical mobo this is the aft cockpit, so quite a bit lower than the gunwhale. On a modern open transom sailboat or jeaneau/bene with 1/2 open transom it is the same. On some sailboats with solid transoms it will be toe rail level
Third, draw another parallel line that is 85% of the way up from the first line to the second line

Measure the length of boat along that third line, multiply by 96%, and that is LLL. So a sharp raked bow has a lower LLL than a plumb bow, AOTBE

There is much more to it than this - you have to read the rules. There is an alternative rudder post measurement (often irrelevant because a good designer will make sure it is when you're close to the 13.7m or 24m threshholds), and you get into removable nose cones on boats over 25m LOA which are "tricks" to keep a boat under 24m LLL, but I wont go there in this post. Bottom line is that you can stay under 24m LLL in a 27m LOA boat, and a 13.7m LLL boat will be typically around 14.5 -15m LOA.

When I say LOA in this post I'm not counting the pulpit overhang.

This is very rough guide - it is googlable but gets quite hard to read as it is not the clearest of rules.

Edit: This picture shows the bow of a ferretti 920 (93'6", 28.5m iirc) which has a separate bow moulding to get under 24m LLL. You don't actually remove it ever (at least not deliberately ) but it can be removed technically, so is not part of the hull and therefore doesn't contribute to LLL. The anchor plate obscures much of the joint but you get the idea. So LOA can be quite a lot more than LLL and designers think about this when the 13.7 and 24 thresholds are relevant

 

[Roberto]

Ah ok, understood. I wont ask you to cite Fr law! This statement is made often in relation to UK law (eg Tranona above) and I'd still be interested in a citation. It might be there but I've never seen it. No worries I suppose.

There is a law reference somewhere, I might find it; it stems from the fact that they are explosives, their use is prohibited unless specifically allowed. If they are in date, they can be used as legal means of signalling distress, if not in date they are simply explosives so forbidden.

Re vhf radio/flares, see "Division 240" regulatory text, in particular point 3.09: having a dsc vhf on board (look for "asn" instead of dsc in French texts) can be accepted as replacement of parachute flares and smoke signals (though not hand flares which remain mandatory beyond coastal navigation), under the skipper responsability.

This also applies to anyone being French resident, whatever flag they are flying.



add: fwiw, most if not all French cruisers I know keep their expired pyrotechnics kit together with their new, in date ones; in case of checkl, not heard of of anything more serious than "you should dispose of the old ones, be sure in the proper way"

 

[jfm]

Ah ok, thanks. That makes sense and your 1st para is probably the structure of UK law as well. IE, as a hunch and no more, explosives are forbidden, but in-date marine flares are an exception specified in the law (the law on explosives, I mean).

 

[Tranona]

"Big" is 13.7m LLL in UK law. Less than that, no flares. Over that, flares are compulsory when at sea.

I have never noticed in UK law a "if you do have them they must be in date" rule, not that I've ever looked for it. Can you/tranona/anyone cite the source of truth on this please?

There have been a number of reports of French "inspections" penalising boats for having out of date flares. This happened after the change in French equipment requirements a few years ago and widely reported at the time in both the press and the RYA. Seems to have died down now though. Nowhere did I say it was UK law as I know it is not.

BTW I am well aware of the UK law and the requirements for boats larger than 13.7m, but I know for a fact that the OP owns a boat much smaller than that so the advice was relevant to him.

 

[jfm]

Nowhere did I say it was UK law as I know it is not.

OK fair cop - I stand corrected - apologies.

BTW I am well aware of the UK law and the requirements for boats larger than 13.7m, but I know for a fact that the OP owns a boat much smaller than that

OK. It just wasn't apparent from your post. A reader who didn't know of OP's boat would imho read your post as saying flares are not compulsory on a UK flagged boat. No worries anyway.

 

[Roberto]

Ah ok, thanks. That makes sense and your 1st para is probably the structure of UK law as well. IE, as a hunch and no more, explosives are forbidden, but in-date marine flares are an exception specified in the law (the law on explosives, I mean).

oddily, it also applies to unserviced liferafts, as they contain expired pyrotechs: if one remains into "coastal" navigation " <6M, no need of a liferaft, though if you have a not-serviced raft on board you would be formally obliged to disembark it. A bit silly really.