Flares - demonstrating thereof and relevant legislation

[pteron]

"It is also prohibited under the Merchant Shipping Act to set off red distress flares if you are not in difficulty and this incident has been reported to the Police."

http://hmcoastguard.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/party-goers-lead-to-false-distress-alert.html?spref=tw

Maybe they're assuming the flares were let off from a boat.

I tweated them about this:

MCA Media @MCA_media Maritime and Coastguard Agency Press Office: PARTY GOERS LEAD TO FALSE DISTRESS ALERT hmcoastguard.blogspot.com/2013/08/party-… - 31 Aug

pteron @MCA_media Can you state where in the Merchant Shipping Act it prohibits setting off red distress flares? - 02 Sep

MCA Media @pteron 1/2 it is a breach of regulation 3 of the merchant shipping (distress signals and prevention of collisions) regulations 1996. 01:10 PM - 02 Sep 13

MCA Media @pteron 2/2 this is subject to being on or near a ship. On land the user becomes subject to firearms and explosive regulations.

pteron @MCA_media 1/2 thanks - so the guys on the beach weren't actually breaching the act as it only applies vessels (section 2).

pteron @MCA_media 2/2 which explosives/firearms regs apply please?

MCA_media @pteron Their actions would come under firearms and explosive regulations and you would need to ask the police.

So even the MCA agree that setting flares off on land does not come under the Merchant Shipping Act.

I've yet to find anything under the firearms and explosives legislation that would apply to an individual. Most of the regs are H&S regs and don't apply to anyone holding less than 5kg of flares.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I tweated them about this:

Thanks for following up.

Incredible how often people will tell you what a law says (often in great detail) yet are unable to cite the law they're describing. Funny old world.

 

[FishyInverness]

I've yet to find anything under the firearms and explosives legislation that would apply to an individual. Most of the regs are H&S regs and don't apply to anyone holding less than 5kg of flares.

At the start of this thread, I picked up my trusty "Scottish Beat Officer's Handbook" from when I was a controller back in Edinburgh and went through it, there isn't any legislation specific to flares under firearms and explosives - even tube launched flares are specifically excluded from the legislation, other flares aren't even mentioned. You'll come under fireworks legislation as I mentioned before, which means, in a public place, you can get nicked for setting one off, on private land you can't under that legislation. However, there is always the catch all "Breach of the peace" which has the definition of "putting the lieges in a state of fear or alarm" - i'm guessing that someone calling 999 because you've set off a flare is considered to be in a state of alarm, so that is *possibly* sufficient to get you nicked.

 

[PeterR]

They're legal for air display organisers then!

I don't know about signalling the start of a display but at every military training airfield I was at it was someones job to sit in a caravan at the end of the runway and fire off a red signal flare if any of the students tried to land with their wheels up. Given that many of those airfields were by the sea I suppose there was the possibility of them being mistaken for a maritime distress flare, although given the relative frequency of attempted wheels up landings it was much more likely that a yachtsman firing a flare in distress would be assumed to have forgotten to check his wheels!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

At the start of this thread, I picked up my trusty "Scottish Beat Officer's Handbook" from when I was a controller back in Edinburgh and went through it, there isn't any legislation specific to flares under firearms and explosives - even tube launched flares are specifically excluded from the legislation, other flares aren't even mentioned. You'll come under fireworks legislation as I mentioned before, which means, in a public place, you can get nicked for setting one off, on private land you can't under that legislation. However, there is always the catch all "Breach of the peace" which has the definition of "putting the lieges in a state of fear or alarm" - i'm guessing that someone calling 999 because you've set off a flare is considered to be in a state of alarm, so that is *possibly* sufficient to get you nicked.

Thanks FI, missed this post first time around. I, for one, appreciate it.

 

[lpdsn]

However, there is always the catch all "Breach of the peace" which has the definition of "putting the lieges in a state of fear or alarm" - i'm guessing that someone calling 999 because you've set off a flare is considered to be in a state of alarm, so that is *possibly* sufficient to get you nicked.

That's interesting. Could you really consider the caller to be in a state of alarm though? Even when responding to a genuinely-used flare from a sinking boat, I was never in a state of alarm. I admit to a sense of relief when a ferry took over, but that was relief from being responsibile for a rescue, not from being in a state of alarm.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Nothing to do with flares on land but worth mentioning anyway IMV:

http://www.hmcoastguard.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/boat-skipper-fined-for-misuse-of-flares.html

 

[prv]

Nothing to do with flares on land but worth mentioning anyway IMV:

http://www.hmcoastguard.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/boat-skipper-fined-for-misuse-of-flares.html

Clearly a bit of an idiot - especially after being warned by the Harbour Master - and the £750 fine seems a fair response.

But for an open-and-shut case in which he freely admitted his guilt and cooperated fully with the MCA, £3000 in costs seems excessive. It makes the actual fine imposed by the law into something of a sideshow compared to the enriching of lawyers and/or the MCA, and that just leaves a bad taste.

And a "victim surcharge" when there's no actual victim is just absurd.

Pete

 

[Stemar]

...Two further rocket flares were later fired further out into the harbour amongst moored boats. This resulted in calls to Brixham Coastguard and a response from the Hope Cove and Salcombe lifeboats. ...

I know the money won't find its way to the lifeboats, but the reponses will have cost a few quid.

He was stupid the first time, but firing off two more flares after the first b0ll0cking ing means he deserves to have the book thrown at him.

 

[prv]

firing off two more flares after the first b0ll0cking ing means he deserves to have the book thrown at him.

Yep - just seems to me that the book in question ought to be the actual fine imposed by the law, not the bills run up by lawyers.

Pete

 

[alant]

At the start of this thread, I picked up my trusty "Scottish Beat Officer's Handbook" from when I was a controller back in Edinburgh and went through it, there isn't any legislation specific to flares under firearms and explosives - even tube launched flares are specifically excluded from the legislation, other flares aren't even mentioned. You'll come under fireworks legislation as I mentioned before, which means, in a public place, you can get nicked for setting one off, on private land you can't under that legislation. However, there is always the catch all "Breach of the peace" which has the definition of "putting the lieges in a state of fear or alarm" - i'm guessing that someone calling 999 because you've set off a flare is considered to be in a state of alarm, so that is *possibly* sufficient to get you nicked.

I remember handing some in at Lymington Police Station some tears ago & the guy at the desk, filled in copious forms, because they said flares 'did' come under firearms & explosives legislation.

 

[FishyInverness]

I remember handing some in at Lymington Police Station some tears ago & the guy at the desk, filled in copious forms, because they said flares 'did' come under firearms & explosives legislation.

Hi Alan, sorry I should clarify as to the way I was referring to it : In Scotland flares are excluded from the CRIMINAL element of legislation (I've not worked with a force in England, so not 100% of the criminal legislation South of the Border) It is entirely possible that handing them over to the authorities will require form filling for legislation, but not actual Criminal Legislation - I make the distinction as the discussion was centreing about what you can get nicked for!

 

[NorthRising]

I remember handing some in at Lymington Police Station some tears ago & the guy at the desk, filled in copious forms, because they said flares 'did' come under firearms & explosives legislation.

Separate legal system here....

 

[lw395]

Clearly a bit of an idiot - especially after being warned by the Harbour Master - and the £750 fine seems a fair response.

But for an open-and-shut case in which he freely admitted his guilt and cooperated fully with the MCA, £3000 in costs seems excessive. It makes the actual fine imposed by the law into something of a sideshow compared to the enriching of lawyers and/or the MCA, and that just leaves a bad taste.

And a "victim surcharge" when there's no actual victim is just absurd.

Pete

True but £3k is very small beer compared to the potential damage or injury which is not that unlikely.

 

[prv]

True but £3k is very small beer compared to the potential damage or injury which is not that unlikely.

I'm not really talking about the overall amount, but rather the way that the actual punishment for the offence, as assessed by the law and the judge, is dwarfed by "costs" four times the size. It's the tail wagging the dog.

Pete

 

[GrahamM376]

I've given this challenge to people in the past.
I've yet to be convinced there is a piece of legislation.
There is a piece of legislation relating to football grounds but that's about it.
The Sporting Events (Control of Alcohol etc.) Act 1985
All the other bits of legislation don't mention flares but require something else. i.e. Wasting Police time,
Criminal Damage, Arson etc

Flares come under the explosives act 1875. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/38-39/17

3 Substances to which this Act applies.E+W+S+N.I..This Act shall apply to gunpowder and other explosives as defined by this section.
The term “explosive” in this Act—
(1)Means gunpowder, nitro–glycerine, dynamite, gun–cotton, blasting powders, fulminate of mercury or of other metals, coloured fires, and every other substance, whether similar to those above–mentioned or not, used or manufactured with a view to produce a practical effect by explosion or a pyrotechnic effect; and .
(2)Includes fog–signals, fireworks, fuzes, rockets, percussion caps, detonators, cartridges, ammunition of all descriptions, and every adaptation or preparation of an explosive as above defined.

There is an exemption for masters of ships not to be prosecuted for a breach in the Act, when letting flares off in a distress situation:-

Saving for master of ship and carrier in case of emergency.E+W+S+N.I..Nothing in this Act shall render liable to any penalty or forfeiture the owner or master of any ship or boat, or any carrier or warehouseman, or the person having charge of any carriage, for any act done in breach of this Act, if he prove that by reason of stress of weather, inevitable accident, or other emergency, the doing of such act was, under the circumstances, necessary and proper.

Does this not imply that to let them off in a non-distres situation would be an offence?

 

[Croak]

So what law had this bloke broken?

 

[Talulah]

Flares come under the explosives act 1875. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/38-39/17

3 Substances to which this Act applies.E+W+S+N.I..This Act shall apply to gunpowder and other explosives as defined by this section.
The term “explosive” in this Act—
(1)Means gunpowder, nitro–glycerine, dynamite, gun–cotton, blasting powders, fulminate of mercury or of other metals, coloured fires, and every other substance, whether similar to those above–mentioned or not, used or manufactured with a view to produce a practical effect by explosion or a pyrotechnic effect; and .
(2)Includes fog–signals, fireworks, fuzes, rockets, percussion caps, detonators, cartridges, ammunition of all descriptions, and every adaptation or preparation of an explosive as above defined.

There is an exemption for masters of ships not to be prosecuted for a breach in the Act, when letting flares off in a distress situation:-

Saving for master of ship and carrier in case of emergency.E+W+S+N.I..Nothing in this Act shall render liable to any penalty or forfeiture the owner or master of any ship or boat, or any carrier or warehouseman, or the person having charge of any carriage, for any act done in breach of this Act, if he prove that by reason of stress of weather, inevitable accident, or other emergency, the doing of such act was, under the circumstances, necessary and proper.

Does this not imply that to let them off in a non-distres situation would be an offence?

In the above you've quoted the Act but not said what offence will be committed.
So 'No' The above does not imply letting them off in a non-distress situation would be an offence.
The above act relates to licencing, storage, transport but not to discharge. (Although I've only scan read it.)

As previously raised there are specific offences for Master of Vessels and Sports Grounds but that is it.

 

[prv]

So what law had this bloke broken?

The bloke in Cornwall? Presumably the Merchant Shipping Regulations that bring SOLAS V into UK law. Regulation 35 of SOLAS V prohibits the use of distress signals when there isn't an emergency.

The point of this thread is that all that stuff only applies at sea, not in your back garden at home, so some other theory has to be found to back up the general statement that letting off flares outside an emergency is illegal everywhere.

Pete

 

[GrahamM376]

The bloke in Cornwall? Presumably the Merchant Shipping Regulations that bring SOLAS V into UK law. Regulation 35 of SOLAS V prohibits the use of distress signals when there isn't an emergency.

The point of this thread is that all that stuff only applies at sea, not in your back garden at home, so some other theory has to be found to back up the general statement that letting off flares outside an emergency is illegal everywhere.

Pete

The problem is that most of the Acts and prosecutions refer to causing an explosion "likely to endanger life". Whilst firing a parachute flare at a football match would likely be classified as such, a well organised flare demonstration presumably wouldn't. I'll have a word with an ex crown prosecution barrister friend when next I meet up with her and see if she can come up with anything.