fisherman
Well-Known Member
Yes. Obligatory for boats over 7m. His is 15ft/4.6m.
Flares - are there any stats on actual emergency use?
- Thread starter Babylon
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thinwater
Well-Known Member
RTCM (Radio Technical Commission for Maritime Services)
eVDSD (electronic distress visual signalling device)
jdc
Well-Known Member
It's hardly statistically significant, but I have actually been rescued by firing a flare, but never by VHF/DSC or EPIRB. It was admittedly 40 years ago, off Port Gentil in Gabon, where the ski boat we were in suffered engine failure during an offshore squall. We anchored, and a flare alerted another vessel to come and tow us back to shore. No VHF etc.
But nowadays it's dubious. However you have to think yourself into the shoes of a defendant in a court case (which there would undoubtedly be if there's a fatality aboard): "so Mr X, you deliberately chose not to carry red flares. I put it to you, the death could have been prevented but for your reckless disregard for the CG recommendations. It was just meanness and that meanness caused death..."
And you will be judged by a landlubber of 96. For less than the cost of one dinner in a waterside restaurant I prefer to have the option of setting off a flare, even 'tho I suspect I'll never have occasion to.
But nowadays it's dubious. However you have to think yourself into the shoes of a defendant in a court case (which there would undoubtedly be if there's a fatality aboard): "so Mr X, you deliberately chose not to carry red flares. I put it to you, the death could have been prevented but for your reckless disregard for the CG recommendations. It was just meanness and that meanness caused death..."
And you will be judged by a landlubber of 96. For less than the cost of one dinner in a waterside restaurant I prefer to have the option of setting off a flare, even 'tho I suspect I'll never have occasion to.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is just so unlikely ever to happen - either a case coming to court involving a private person or there being a "coastguard recommendation". In fact if you want to draw in any kind of reference body as to what "safety" equipment is required, there is no law for private vessels under 13m or so to carry flares and the RYA is working hard to get even that removed.
So, no you don't have to put yourself in the shoes of a defendant in court. You are responsible for carrying out your own risk assessment and making your own decision on what to carry in terms of equipment. There would not automatically be a court case if there was a fatality. There would be an inquest to establish the facts and that may lead to recommendations. There would also probably be an MAIB investigation which might indeed also make recommendations. If there was a criminal case then it would be either MCA if the offence was under the MSA or the police. If the boat was commercial it would be required to carry flares anyway so your question would never arise.
William_H
Well-Known Member
Carriage of in date flares is mandatory for any vessel going in ocean more than a short distance from land. (west Oz) I think that cost and short life and danger in using them make for negative arguments. Still authorities demand.. They also demand carriage of radio and EPIRB. Seems to me a lot of rescues are successful because of EPIRB. A lot of rescues come from small trailer mobos capsizing. ie sudden distress where occupantsm must dive down to find and release EPIRB. Interessting authorities here won't accept a PLB although I think a huge advantage if you are wearing one ina capsize. Being beaurocrats public servants they are not flexible to change rules. ol'will
Gsailor
...
Post 13 and 20 are what I agree with - carry the whole lot - kitchen sink can be left behind perhaps.
Flares will probably be useful in daylight.
- white or red and smoke good for wind direction too.
Para flares will be good at night if out in the wild sea over the horizon.
The mini rocket flares with a yellow pen like trigger ( are they still legal or is a firearms cert needed?) have a place. I have a set out of date in 2000 and a second pack of 8 (or is it 6)? Out of date by 2010 perhaps. But as I keep them in hermetically sealed bags and will only use them if my life is in danger it is worth the risk of them not firing or worse - killing me by burns rather than drowning - (they look like simple silver caps with a rocket at he centre, so hopefully not a lot to go wrong)
Flares will probably be useful in daylight.
- white or red and smoke good for wind direction too.
Para flares will be good at night if out in the wild sea over the horizon.
The mini rocket flares with a yellow pen like trigger ( are they still legal or is a firearms cert needed?) have a place. I have a set out of date in 2000 and a second pack of 8 (or is it 6)? Out of date by 2010 perhaps. But as I keep them in hermetically sealed bags and will only use them if my life is in danger it is worth the risk of them not firing or worse - killing me by burns rather than drowning - (they look like simple silver caps with a rocket at he centre, so hopefully not a lot to go wrong)
Gsailor
...
Not disagreeing with what you have said but channel 5 (or UKTV otherwise) are streaming a coastguard programme where the CG are prosecuting people and helping the police prosecute - and I have only half watched one programme so far - scary stuff - a person dead because vessel (commercial) used an unsuitable dock and MOB could not find a ladder and was recovered from sea too late. So the CG will prosecute is all I am saying.
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with flares but:
In a multihull race from Brisbane to Gladstone on Oz east coast one, or at least one, sports cat capsized. This is a coastal passage race largely just offshore. The helicopter pilot made note that in white water it is very difficult to pick out a white yacht - we have always used red AF
Jonathan
In a multihull race from Brisbane to Gladstone on Oz east coast one, or at least one, sports cat capsized. This is a coastal passage race largely just offshore. The helicopter pilot made note that in white water it is very difficult to pick out a white yacht - we have always used red AF
Jonathan
fisherman
Well-Known Member
I think that's one where a powerboat ran into rocks in fog at 25kts. Skipper was fined £16k.
Man ordered to pay £16,000 after Isles of Scilly boat crash
In the case of my fisherman friend if he had no miniflares he was utterly reliant on the PLB only, and the CG may not have responded promptly to a PLB alone. The flares did the trick in terms of getting the LB launched. He was forty minutes in the water as it is, long enough.
fisherman
Well-Known Member
Incidentally, a word about the LJ. He's a big lad, and the two sides of the LJ pushed up into a cleavage which held enough water to submerge his mouth, so he was constantly spluttering and blowing to breath, just to add to his troubles. He had the crotch strap in place. 22 stone, 66 year old.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Not sure that coastguard have authority to prosecute but of course they will co-operate with police IF an offence has been committed. The point I am making in response to the post on a hypothetical court drama is that there is no requirement in law for a private boat (under 13.5m) to carry flares, so nothing to prosecute for. Equally even if flares are carried there is no legal definition of how and when they are to be used, so no offence in not using.
There may well be strong arguments for using flares in particular situations, but the number of occasions where they would be "best" is now extremely small, and of those where the success of the rescue and saving lives is solely down to the use of flares even smaller - if any.
Flares are just one tool in the "safety" equipment armoury, but their usefulness as declined as other tools become available to the point where you could argue for the majority of leisure sailors they have no value at all.
boomerangben
Well-Known Member
I’ll second that, even with a small white boat the right way up.
It is also why most North Sea and SAR helicopters with a white painted underside have orange/red chevrons painted on them. A hard lesson learned a long time ago
William_H
Well-Known Member
A Panpan was called. This as I understand is the correct call for relaying or discussing an emergency. ie Mayday only by vessel sinking. Should still get needed action.
Re CG response to a beacon being "call a few people". This is actually a very valuable part of modern EPIRB. It is a way of confirming that it is likely to be a genuine emergency. Hence worthy of bringing out all possible resources. "Nice for wife" I don't think it important to keep her in the dark compared to any useful information she may be able to give. The old system 121.5mhz with no ID reportedly suffered 70% false alarms for all sorts of reasons. Hence some reluctance to go to a lot of expense in a call out. ol'will
fisherman
Well-Known Member
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flaming
Well-Known Member
We've had the flare debate a lot over the years...
In my view they still do 2 jobs that nothing else does.
Which are indicate very clearly the exact boat in trouble when the helicopter is circling looking for the "white boat with white sails" which has a crew member with a head injury. Note that the RTI organisers decided that 2 smoke flares were required to be carried on this year's race on advice from the coastguard and RNLI, despite pressure not to.
And also indicate distress to those closest to you without the need for them to have switched their VHF on etc. I highly recommend reading the MAIB report of Hooligan for anyone doubting this role.
I also renewed a full set of flares this year. When something else comes along that does those jobs as well as they do (and the racing authorities change their regs to suit), I'll be quite happy to sail without them. But until then they earn a place on my boat.
In my view they still do 2 jobs that nothing else does.
Which are indicate very clearly the exact boat in trouble when the helicopter is circling looking for the "white boat with white sails" which has a crew member with a head injury. Note that the RTI organisers decided that 2 smoke flares were required to be carried on this year's race on advice from the coastguard and RNLI, despite pressure not to.
And also indicate distress to those closest to you without the need for them to have switched their VHF on etc. I highly recommend reading the MAIB report of Hooligan for anyone doubting this role.
I also renewed a full set of flares this year. When something else comes along that does those jobs as well as they do (and the racing authorities change their regs to suit), I'll be quite happy to sail without them. But until then they earn a place on my boat.
shanemax
N/A
I would keep a couple of hand held red or white flares available. If there are a few boats in a two mile square radius it identifies which boat needs assistance and if it was a medical emergency you do not want the life boat getting confused.
Plus if you think you have not been seen by an approaching ship its a good way of saying "I'm here"
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
We have the very same beautification requires on this side of the Indian Ocean
PLB not acceptable due to only 24 hours not 48 hours. I have road strobes not acceptable we must have flaries wven we have VHF SSA mobile phones with access all around the coast.
We also have the SAFE TRX system for reporting of location and over due arrival alos not acceptable
Signal flags are requirement for use if need be
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
We had a yacht lost on route from Mauritius to Durban some years ago (lost keel and capsized. The black anti fouling was noted as difficult to see against the dark blue sea
ylop
Well-Known Member
Send the MCGA a FOI request. If they have the data they will share it. But perhaps need to think the question you are asking? No of reports of flares seen which turned out to be real (most seem to be false alarm with good intent) or number of rescues where a flare was deployed?
3 seems unusually pesimistic - any particular reason?
1. Unlikely to be a defendant (or you might be dead!). It’s often misclaimed that you have might have to explain a decision to the coroner (which is unpleasant but doesn’t make you a defendant) or you might be prosecuted for manslaughter, which is very unlikely on a pleasure vessel operated in a generally responsible manner but where you made a reasoned decision not to have a flammable signalling method from last century on board
2. If you did find yourself in that position you (or your defence barrister) would presumably point out the RYA/RNLI etc guidance which says actually skippers should make up their own mind about pyros!
3. On that basis everyone who doesn’t have a PLB/EPIRB despite the official suggestion would be liable to proceeding and none are.
Yes still legal. Not a firearm
They prosecute commercial operations for cutting corners and individuals (including pleasure users) for total stupidity not making balanced decisions.
I think too much emphasis is placed on the flares in your story. I agree PLBs aren’t quite the get out of jail card people sometimes think they are - but I think most flares are just as likely to be assumed to be false alarm etc. in this case the flares didn’t actually work - they just added to the picture to understand the PLB
They definitely do.
correct call for a flare (or some other reason to believe another vessel is in distress is a Mayday Relay) however the coastguard may decide to broadcast that is a PanPan - which I have taken as a sign they probably don’t think it’s a real distress! Certainly I’ve heard Belfast CG issue PanPan for phone calls of flares asking vessels in area to report what they see but not asking vessels to go to the area to investigate. (Those have all been cancelled an hour or two later).