Flares again

I have used a white flare, in thick fog, after realising that a cross-channel ferry was in close proximity, just inside Cherbourg outer harbour; I'd been watching it on my radar, and despite steering away from it, it seemed to be getting closer. After firing the flare, he promptly gave 2 horn blasts, and 30 seconds later, came past us to starboard, about 20 metres away; we could barely see the lights from his windows. I am sure the glow from the flare gave him something to steer away from and think it's likely that we avoided a collision.
 
alant said:
.....

My advice, if sailing anywhere where shipping coexists, is to make sure that your Radar reflector is hoisted & actually gives a good target for anything bigger. Use your VHF & try to contact them, tell them you are there. If you rely on a white flare, its unlikely even if seen, evasive action could be taken in time.
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The ships, fishing vessels on autopilot etc where there's nobody looking out of the window very possibly don't have anyone looking at the radar either.

The point is you can't pre-plan your crises, you have to take them as you find them.
Flares are one of the things that might help you.
 
lw395 said:
The ships, fishing vessels on autopilot etc where there's nobody looking out of the window very possibly don't have anyone looking at the radar either.

The point is you can't pre-plan your crises, you have to take them as you find them.
Flares are one of the things that might help you.
Click to expand...

"Might" being the operative word.

If no-one is looking out of the window, what is the point of firing a flare?
There's no-one there to see it! :rolleyes:

Before you let one off, see this report
http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/405442/man-injured-by-exploding-flare-stable

When instructing, even on a theory course, I ask students to demonstrate how they would fire a flare (red or white). Most (even those who have been on a sea survival course) will point the 'burning' end away from them, but the handle is often pointing back toward their body, which in the case of the poor guy doing a demo, resulted in the whole flare being propelled into his body parts & burning at 1000deg+ for 30 seconds.

A sobering thought!

PS
How many of you white flare adherents, also have gloves ready to use when holding/firing them?
Or are they safely tucked away in your flare box in a locker?

PPS
Hows your night vision, now you've flash fried your optic nerve?
 
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onesea said:
I was thinking one of those wee dinghy sailing cartridge type packs (smoke and flare or a inshore/ coastal pack) and a laser flare...
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Until laser flares are properly codified and approved internationally all they will do for you is ensure no helicopter comes anywhere near you.

There are several problems with lasers, first there is no national or international standard so any one seeing one has no idea what it is, red flares, rockets and smokes are.

Second lasers can and do cause eye damage, in some cases even so called eye safe lasers can damage eyes. Every pilot is aware of the idiots who flash laser pens etc at planes as they land and the potential for disaster this creates so will keep well clear of any one shining a laser. Until safety lasers are properly recognisd and can be seen by a pilot to be of a safe kind all helicopters will keep very clear of any laser.
 
If you really want to be safe from big ships when it's dark and foggy, then AIS transmit and receive is the only way to go. We entered New York Harbour at around 0700 in thick fog with commuter hydrofoils doing c30kts and they just picked us up on AIS and called us on the VHF - we just said we were holding our course (just out of the channel) and they went by on a toot, no more than 100 metres away. They couldn't see us and we couldn't see them visually, but with AIS, radar and a Sea-Me we felt quite safe.
 
onesea said:
I was thinking one of those wee dinghy sailing cartridge type packs (smoke and flare or a inshore/ coastal pack) and a laser flare...
Click to expand...

Those little flares are almost totally useless. Even the old Vey cartridge flares are only effective if you fire a sequence of two close togather - the eye sees something out of the side of the vision, and the brain turns attention that way a single cartridge does not burn long enough for the brain to have taken an accurate look, but the attention is then on the correct area to look.

This was the whole principle behind the development of the parachute flare.

The double ended day and night pyrotechnic has a different purpose. They are particularly useful to the helicopter in showing exactly which vessel has the problem, and also a fast check on sea-level wind. This device is probably the most important in crowded shipping areas.
 
Talbot said:
Those little flares are almost totally useless. Even the old Vey cartridge flares are only effective if you fire a sequence of two close togather - the eye sees something out of the side of the vision, and the brain turns attention that way a single cartridge does not burn long enough for the brain to have taken an accurate look, but the attention is then on the correct area to look.

This was the whole principle behind the development of the parachute flare.

The double ended day and night pyrotechnic has a different purpose. They are particularly useful to the helicopter in showing exactly which vessel has the problem, and also a fast check on sea-level wind. This device is probably the most important in crowded shipping areas.
Click to expand...

I would add that in most coastal areas the locals are pretty reasonable at both spotting parachute flares and reporting them which does still make them a good reserve in case of total electrical failure
 
alant said:
"Might" being the operative word.

If no-one is looking out of the window, what is the point of firing a flare?
There's no-one there to see it! :rolleyes:

Before you let one off, see this report
http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/405442/man-injured-by-exploding-flare-stable

When instructing, even on a theory course, I ask students to demonstrate how they would fire a flare (red or white). Most (even those who have been on a sea survival course) will point the 'burning' end away from them, but the handle is often pointing back toward their body, which in the case of the poor guy doing a demo, resulted in the whole flare being propelled into his body parts & burning at 1000deg+ for 30 seconds.

A sobering thought!

PS
How many of you white flare adherents, also have gloves ready to use when holding/firing them?
Or are they safely tucked away in your flare box in a locker?

PPS
Hows your night vision, now you've flash fried your optic nerve?
Click to expand...

Agreed.
Flares are in my view, bloody dangerous.
A last resort.
But one I can envisage using, and would take more convincing to be without in a typical UK yacht.
 
alant said:
You are missing the point. .....
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I am not missing the point at all. You make an assumption that no one is looking. That assumption might be wrong. This is the only point that I make.

We are discussing the OPs query on renewing flares. I think they still have a place, including the use of a white flare in a close quarters situation. I don't think they are redundant technology, especially in coastal sailing.

The other points you make I can agree with, especially regarding radar reflectors, early evasive action and safe use of flares. But I was not debating alternative strategies, only that its wrong to assume that no one is looking.

So you missed the point. I thought I made my point very clear.
 
nigelmercier said:
When I get round to finding a place to dispose of my seriously out of date flares, I'm going to just buy a couple of reds, and perhaps an orange. No more rockets.
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The recent "Save the Clyde Coastguard" demonstration was the 1st time I had ever let off a flare. The rockets were easy and very quick to let off, the red flares are easy to trigger but then take what seemed like a very long time to burn, a time when the operator is unable to do anything but hold onto the flare - or throw it away which somewhat misses the point of the things. No drama in letting them off - was kitted out with welding gloves and goggles but they were unnecessary. In all I have lost any concerns about keeping or using the things but in a panic situation would let the rockets off in preference to the hand-helds which I would keep for pinpointing my position when action was not my immediate concern.
 
Further to my comment re powerful torches, I would also support the reference earlier to AIS being the way to go to alert big ships.

Crossing the Celtic sea a couple of weeks ago we were close to two ships in opposing directions which were going to pass away from my track. However, I heard them talk to each other and feared they might both turn a little to starboard to increas their own CPA. Had they done this one could well have turned to a collision course with us. I called him on VHF and asked him to confirm he had seen us 4 miles off his starboard bow. There was a pause then he said "I can see you on radar but see no AIS". I replied that we were a small yacht without AIS. He then altered course and was well clear of us and the other ship.

I interpret the delay as him checking his radar and spotting us; suggesting radar is now really secondary to AIS plotters. Given the ease of watching AIS compared to radar this is, perhaps, understandable.

So using AIS reception and a VHF to alert ships works. Whether he would have seen flares or torches I don't know. I'd also reference a situation in the channel where a ship did not respond to a VHF call on ch16. Being a few years ago I had no AIS receiver or DSC transmitter so could only call by location. I got no response but the coastguard heard my call worked out the ship I was calling and alerted them with DSC call to which they responded.

So these high tech (AIS, VHF, DSC etc) tools can work for assisting protection against big ships. But of course they also have weaknesses.
 
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