Flags And Dual Nationality❓

[jordanbasset]

Heres a nice flag

I fly that in addition to the red duster and Greek courtesy flag

 

[RichardS]

I fly that in addition to the red duster and Greek courtesy flag

But only for the next few weeks .... then you can gracefully retire it. :encouragement:

Richard

 

[lw395]

What's the point of an ensign, at least in home waters? I think you should think about your motives; if its sole purpose is to annoy others it makes you a sort of Troll.

If it's just to signify membership of some 'club', however informal (eg 'tedious xenophobes r us') then a pennant at masthead or cross-trees is what to do.

The point of an ensign is often to indicate that you are not racing.

 

[jdc]

The point of an ensign is often to indicate that you are not racing.

Yes of course it is. But in that case its purpose isn't solely to annoy others. It's that motive I decry.

 

[Greemble]

An intersting response.

The only point I would make, if the vessel goes ‘overseas’, I believe it would have to be registered somewhere (SSR or other nationality registration), which of course, would change the whole scenatio.

Absolutely - Unfortunately as US citizen, I cannot register my boat on the SSR.

I also cannot register in the US (that I know of, I've not checked the regulations of every State), as it seems I need to be resident there to do so, too.

Hence my boat is not UK registered, but the flag will be that of its owner/skipper when I'm sailing it

Whether he can fly the Red Ensign sdepends on whether he is a qualified person in accordance with 1 (1) (d) (ii). It's an interesting question.

Exactly. I suspect by 'qualified' it means able to register on the SSR, which I am not.

Edit: I suspect, but do not know - I'd welcome knowing for sure

 

[Greemble]

I don't think it's a windup, just a fundamental misconception that a vessel's flag state somehow depends on the nationality of its crew, when in fact the two are entirely separate and largely unrelated things.
Pete

Not the crew...
- The owner (when aboard) or skipper (if a different person to the owner).
This, for an unregistered boat.

Scenario:
Solo sailor is flying the red duster a few miles off-shore, heading for a UK harbour.
Boarder Agency decide to have a spot check and discover the boat is not registered and the skipper has a non-UK/EU/EEA passport.

Is this sailor/boat legal?
Could (not necessarily 'would') the BA take further action on the basis of an illegal flag?

 

[jdc]

Absolutely - Unfortunately as US citizen, I cannot register my boat on the SSR....I suspect by 'qualified' it means able to register on the SSR, which I am not.

This is simply not true. To register on the SSR you need to be 'Ordinarily Resident' in the UK. That is entirely available to a US (or any other) citizen. The definition of Ordinarily Resident is not statute law but common law, but there is loads of precedent. See https://assets.publishing.service.g...chment_data/file/632337/ordinaryresidence.pdf
for some data.

I went into this in some detail - writing to the MCA for instance - and received chapter and verse which is published on the CA website.

 

[Greemble]

This is simply not true. To register on the SSR you need to be 'Ordinarily Resident' in the UK. That is entirely available to a US (or any other) citizen. The definition of Ordinarily Resident is not statute law but common law, but there is loads of precedent.

I went into this in some detail - writing to the MCA for instance - and received chapter and verse which is published on the CA website.

That's not what the SSR online registration states. Yes, you need to be 'Ordinarily Resident', but it goes on...

Persons eligible for the UK Small Ships register are: (a) British citizens; (b) Persons who are nationals of an EU or EEA country other than the UK and who are established in the UK in accordance with Articles 48 and 52 of the EU Treaty; (c) British Dependent Territories citizens; British Overseas citizens; persons who under the British Nationality Act 1991 are British subjects; persons who under the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order are British Nationals Overseas, and (d) British Commonwealth citizens not falling within those paragraphs.

Please be aware that applicants may be required to provide documentary evidence of their nationality and UK residency. It is an offence to knowingly make a false statement or provide false information in order to obtain registration.

Unfortunately, I do not fit the eligibility of any of the nationality categories.
Maybe their website needs an update?
It would make me feel somewhat less uncertain when out, that's for sure.

 

[nortada]

Presumably someday one of your duel nationalities will shoot the other and thus solve the dilemma?

Good point, if I had duel nationality but I don’t

 

[bbg]

SBS or HMRC?

Suspect both operations have better things to do.

Is there any evidence that, in the UK, these organizations target foreign flagged visitors?

Provided you are legal, what is wrong with having a 'nice cup of tea' with upholders of the law'.

Short of carrying contraband (people, drugs, drugs etc.), unlike other countries, legality in the UK is a pretty low bar.

'Freedom Of The Seas' and all of that.

If you are flying any ensign, the local authorities may well ask you to prove that your vessel is registered in the country of the ensign you fly. They will ask you to prove that it is legal.

As long as you can do that you'll be fine.

 

[lw395]

Is there actually any requirement for a UK-based yacht in UK waters to be registered at all? If that yacht is owned or sailed by an American, does it break any law flying a red ensign?

If you cross the channel, the need for registration arises.

AIUI Part 1 registration can be arranged by anyone of any nationality, simply by having the yacht owned by a UK-based limited company. That is not hard to do or necessarily expensive.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Is there actually any requirement for a UK-based yacht in UK waters to be registered at all? If that yacht is owned or sailed by an American, does it break any law flying a red ensign?

It can't be a British ship unless the owner is a qualified person, but that's a sufficient condition for a red ensign and perhaps not a necessary one.

 

[jdc]

That's not what the SSR online registration states. Yes, you need to be 'Ordinarily Resident', but it goes on...

Unfortunately, I do not fit the eligibility of any of the nationality categories.
Maybe their website needs an update?
It would make me feel somewhat less uncertain when out, that's for sure.

That's very interesting. I will write to the MCA and ask about this. When I got involved in the past it was on behalf of UK citizens who were cruising outside the UK for more than 185 days in any one year. The MCA website used to go on about 185 days, but that was only one definition of what might qualify one as ordinarily resident and was never the definition or mandatory. The eventual reply I received said:

"I am pleased to inform you that I have now*received*the following*replies to each of the issues raised in your email.
*
Firstly it is agreed that the reference to 185 days residence in the UK can be*misleading*as it was based on previous HMRC guidance which has*been reviewed. I should explain that applications are in fact determined on a variety of factors and this includes whether a person pays UK tax.
*
The guidance was intended to assist applicants and since it is clear from your enquiry this is not serving its*purpose, the guidance will be revised. I should point out that in any event the guidance cannot be binding on the Registrar as the facts vary from case to case. Therefore, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the examples that you quoted as I cannot determine the outcome*before an application is made but can confirm that when such application is received it is considered on its own facts and merits."

It's a new angle for me to consider which nationalities can apply but I've certainly met many who are not UK citizens (maybe commonwealth 'tho, I can no longer be sure). It's quite likely that the MCA's list isn't exhaustive and in any event there's nothing to stop you applying for the SSR; as they acknowledged in their letter to me each case is taken on merit.

 

[nortada]

If you are flying any ensign, the local authorities may well ask you to prove that your vessel is registered in the country of the ensign you fly. They will ask you to prove that it is legal.

As long as you can do that you'll be fine.

Is there actually any requirement for a UK-based yacht in UK waters to be registered at all? No.

If that yacht is owned or sailed by an American, does it break any law flying a red ensign? Don't know but suspect nobody would know or care!

If you cross the channel, the need for registration arises. Only when you enter another countries territorial waters - you could sail up and down mid channel as much as you wish - flagless but can't think why you would wish to.

AIUI Part 1 registration can be arranged by anyone of any nationality, simply by having the yacht owned by a UK-based limited company. That is not hard to do or necessarily expensive. Not my part of ship.

When all is said and done, unless you are up to no good, I suspect nobody would give a tinkers 'cuss what you flew or where!:encouragement:

 

[Birdseye]

If I had duel nationality and an unregistered boat in the UK, would it be permissible to fly the flag of my alternative nationality from the stern of this unregistered boat but then fly the red ensign from the stb spreader as a courtesy flag

Be a change from flying the red ensign from the stern and the other national flag from the port spreader as a house flag.

Fly whatever you want wherever you want. Just be aware that if, for example, you flew the IS flag in the sight of one of her majesties grey funnel line they might ( assuming they are awake and can be bothered) take an interest in you. That would waste their time and yours.

You might also trigger some pedantry from a crusty old military type were you to sail into a Royal yacht club like that.

 

[nortada]

Fly whatever you want wherever you want. Just be aware that if, for example, you flew the IS flag in the sight of one of her majesties grey funnel line they might ( assuming they are awake and can be bothered) take an interest in you. That would waste their time and yours.

You might also trigger some pedantry from a crusty old military type were you to sail into a Royal yacht club like that.

I'll have you know, I am a crusty old military type but I do have a (misplaced) sense of humour. :encouragement:

 

[dgadee]

I know someone who, coming up the Irish coast, flies an Irish flag. When he gets to Carlingford Lough, he changes to a British ensign. I think it's allowed under the 'backstop'.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Fly whatever you want wherever you want. Just be aware that if, for example, you flew the IS flag in the sight of one of her majesties grey funnel line they might ( assuming they are awake and can be bothered) take an interest in you. That would waste their time and yours.

You might also trigger some pedantry from a crusty old military type were you to sail into a Royal yacht club like that.

What does the IS flag look like? Didn't even know they had one.

 

[JumbleDuck]

What does the IS flag look like? Didn't even know they had one.

GIYF.

 

[Birdseye]

If I had duel nationality and an unregistered boat in the UK, would it be permissible to fly the flag of my alternative nationality from the stern of this unregistered boat but then fly the red ensign from the stb spreader as a courtesy flag

Be a change from flying the red ensign from the stern and the other national flag from the port spreader as a house flag.

Unregistered means you arent taking it abroad. Therefore you can fly whatever you want wherever you want to fly it. The only people who will object , and its none of their business anyway, are some crusty old blimp types in blazers and red slacks. IMO thats a very good argument for flying something unusual - skull and cross bones? Coca Cola ensign?

Its all a load ob ull poo,