Flags And Dual Nationality❓

[nortada]

If I had duel nationality and an unregistered boat in the UK, would it be permissible to fly the flag of my alternative nationality from the stern of this unregistered boat but then fly the red ensign from the stb spreader as a courtesy flag

Be a change from flying the red ensign from the stern and the other national flag from the port spreader as a house flag.

 

[JumbleDuck]

If I had duel nationality and an unregistered boat in the UK, would it be permissible to fly the flag of my alternative nationality from the stern of this unregistered boat but then fly the red ensign from the stb spreader as a courtesy flag

Be a change from flying the red ensign from the stern and the other national flag from the port spreader as a house flag.

I don't think you could, for two reasons. First of all, a vessel doesn't have to be registered to be British, so you may well be in breach of the "flying any other distinctive national colours" under the MSA. Second, the country whose flag your flying may have its own rules, though it's hard to see how they could enforce them in the UK.

It might be safer to fly something which reflects your nationality but isn't actually another country's merchant flag at your stern. So, for example, Catalonia rather than Spain or Sicily rather than Italy. Like the Scottish Merchant Flag it may cause a few elderly yacht club types to rupture something, but hey, that frees up moorings.

 

[prv]

The ensign on the boat is nothing to do with your nationality, but the nationality of the boat. If you fly a Portuguese flag from the stern then you're asserting that the boat is registered in Portugal. Relatively unlikely in the UK that this will lead to trouble, but it's not impossible that HMRC might ask to see your boat's Portuguese papers, which you don't have.

Pete

 

[[70521]]

As long as you have all the documentation when the people in black board you. Why make things complicated?

 

[nortada]

I will say it slowly - like a vast number of boats in the UK that never leave UK Waters, the boat isn’t registered anywhere so doesn’t have any papers of registration, or ‘nationality’.

The vast number of unregistered boats in the UK I quote normally have a UK owner so fly the Red Duster or some funny flag (often not recognised outside the UK), suggesting that they are a rather ‘up market’ person in yottie terms.

So if a Guy from, say, the USA owned an unregistered boat in the UK, what should he fly, Stars and Stripes or Red Duster

 

[Greemble]

From I can gather, if the boat is not registered, then the nationality of the captain, skipper or (if on board) the owner's national flag should be flown.
Strictly speaking, no other flags should be on the stern, but of course, who is checking these days?

The Ensign shows the country of registry of the vessel and indicates its nationality.
A UK flagged vessel must wear her ensign as required by the Merchant Shipping Act, which includes when entering or leaving a foreign port and on demand. It is recommended that the ensign is worn at all times in daylight, especially when near to or in sight of land or another vessel.
A UK registered vessel should wear the national maritime flag, the Red Ensign, unless entitled to wear a special Ensign. Wearing anything other than an authorised Ensign is a violation of British and International Law.

Flying the flag of your 'other' nationality with a red ensign on the starboard spreader is quite correct - providing you have your 'other' passport with you at the time and are happy to go through all the customs checks, should they prove necessary - if you can find the customs chaps.
Might be easier just to stick to the red ensign, especially if rules get more strictly enforced after April.

I'm from the USA, living in the UK* and cannot register my boat here, because the rules state I must be a UK, EU*, EEA* or British Protectorate citizenship/subject.
Therefore I fly the Stars & Stripes at the stern, with a red ensign up on the spreaders.

As a thought - How many UK sailors running up & down the coast take their passports when they go out, I wonder?

*For now, at least

 

[JumbleDuck]

I will say it slowly - like a vast number of boats in the UK that never leave UK Waters, the boat isn’t registered anywhere so doesn’t have any papers of registration, or ‘nationality’.

Saying it slowly doesn't make it true. Merchant Shipping Act 1995:

So if a Guy from, say, the USA owned an unregistered boat in the UK, what should he fly, Stars and Stripes or Red Duster

Whether he can fly the stars and stripes depends on US regulations. Whether he can fly the Red Ensign sdepends on whether he is a qualified person in accordance with 1 (1) (d) (ii). It's an interesting question.

 

[nortada]

From I can gather, if the boat is not registered, then the nationality of the captain, skipper or (if on board) the owner's national flag should be flown.
Strictly speaking, no other flags should be on the stern, but of course, who is checking these days?

Flying the flag of your 'other' nationality with a red ensign on the starboard spreader is quite correct - providing you have your 'other' passport with you at the time and are happy to go through all the customs checks, should they prove necessary - if you can find the customs chaps.
Might be easier just to stick to the red ensign, especially if rules get more strictly enforced after April.

I'm from the USA, living in the UK* and cannot register my boat here, because the rules state I must be a UK, EU*, EEA* or British Protectorate citizenship/subject.
Therefore I fly the Stars & Stripes at the stern, with a red ensign up on the spreaders.

As a thought - How many UK sailors running up & down the coast take their passports when they go out, I wonder?

*For now, at least

An intersting response.

The only point I would make, if the vessel goes ‘overseas’, I believe it would have to be registered somewhere (SSR or other nationality registration), which of course, would change the whole scenatio.

 

[[70521]]

I will say it slowly - like a vast number of boats in the UK that never leave UK Waters
;

The people in black can board any vessel at any time. If they see another countries ensign they might be more interested in having a wee a chat.

 

[nortada]

The people in black can board any vessel at any time. If they see another countries ensign they might be more interested in having a wee a chat.

SBS or HMRC?

Suspect both operations have better things to do.

Is there any evidence that, in the UK, these organizations target foreign flagged visitors?

Provided you are legal, what is wrong with having a 'nice cup of tea' with upholders of the law'.

Short of carrying contraband (people, drugs, drugs etc.), unlike other countries, legality in the UK is a pretty low bar.

'Freedom Of The Seas' and all of that.

 

[[70521]]

SBS or HMRC?

Suspect both operations have better things to do.

If it was SBS they would not disclose that there were from Poole Sadly, it has been some time since we had Customs and Excise Officers. I understand that the Border Agency carry out the work previously undertaken by C&E Officers.

Perhaps it is the area I sail in, but see them quite often and crew on a vessel that gets boarded quite frequently, please don't ask why.

 

[prv]

SBS or HMRC?

HMRC.

Suspect both operations have better things to do.

They didn't have anything better to do than board us on a passage from Itchenor to Lymington a few years ago.

Provided you are legal, what is wrong with having a 'nice cup of tea' with upholders of the law'.

Nothing at all - it was an interesting diversion for us. But if you are purporting to be a Portuguese-flagged vessel, but aren't registered in Portugal, are you in fact "legal"? And if you turn out to be a British Ship (whether registered or not) then you are certainly not "legal".

'Freedom Of The Seas' and all of that.

Is that a Carnival cruise liner?

If not, what exactly is it?

Pete

 

[OtherChap]

SBS or HMRC?

Suspect both operations have better things to do.

Is there any evidence that, in the UK, these organizations target foreign flagged visitors?

Provided you are legal, what is wrong with having a 'nice cup of tea' with upholders of the law'.

Short of carrying contraband (people, drugs, drugs etc.), unlike other countries, legality in the UK is a pretty low bar.

'Freedom Of The Seas' and all of that.

I have been searched by HMRC when arriving in England under a foreign flag (chartered boat fom France). They did search the boat, and I suspect they searched for "contraband", most probably people, as they only seemed to be interested in relatively large lockers. They did a check of the crew list and Passports, but I guess passport only would have been good enough. The whole procedure took around 10 minutes and they were very professional. It did not delay us in any way, they actually insisted we sail on (under spinnaker...).

 

[Old Bumbulum]

Presumably someday one of your duel nationalities will shoot the other and thus solve the dilemma?

 

[jdc]

What's the point of an ensign, at least in home waters? I think you should think about your motives; if its sole purpose is to annoy others it makes you a sort of Troll.

If it's just to signify membership of some 'club', however informal (eg 'tedious xenophobes r us') then a pennant at masthead or cross-trees is what to do.

 

[nortada]

What's the point of an ensign, at least in home waters? I think you should think about your motives; if its sole purpose is to annoy others it makes you a sort of Troll.

If it's just to signify membership of some 'club', however informal (eg 'tedious xenophobes r us') then a pennant at masthead or cross-trees is what to do.

As the OP, it was just an innocent question, following a conversation in the bar.

With the approach of Brexit numerous Brits in Portugal have now got dual (UK/Portuguese) residency; hence the discussion so if there is any trolling, it ain't coming from us Guv:encouragement:

If I had dual residency and an unregistered boat in the UK, would I do it?

So as not to offend the sensitive, probably not.:encouragement:

But there again.

As on here, it could make a good talking point.

 

[Graham376]

With the approach of Brexit numerous Brits in Portugal have now got dual (UK/Portuguese) residency; hence the discussion so if there is any trolling, it ain't coming from us Guv:encouragement:

If I had dual residency and an unregistered boat in the UK, would I do it?

This has got to be wind-up. Having residence elsewhere has no bearing whatsoever on personal or boat's nationality. Flying a Portuguese or any other foreign ensign on a UK owned and based boat would be against the law and, in my opinion a pretty dumb action.

 

[prv]

This has got to be wind-up.

I don't think it's a windup, just a fundamental misconception that a vessel's flag state somehow depends on the nationality of its crew, when in fact the two are entirely separate and largely unrelated things.

Pete

 

[Slowtack]

Heres a nice flag

 

[Sybarite]

Heres a nice flag

The UK has an exception to UNCLOS laws which state that a boat must bear the flag of the country where it is registered. If you have a British boat that goes abroad it must be registered and the flag must reflect this registration.