Flag stuff...

[Fantasie 19]

...it's a bit quiet round here so the following may prompt a bit of chat, but let me start by saying up front this is not a troll....

...I fly a red ensign - I don't have a flag pole, I fly it off the backstay..

I tend to leave it up all year - one because it's a little bit of a pain to take down (being tied on etc etc),but two, because (slightly unusually in these days) I'm rather proud of my red ensign - many brave deeds have been done whilst sailing under that flag.... so I leave it up all the time.....

Now I've never had any problem with this - but yesterday I was working away on the boat enjoying the sunshine and a chap came along and took me to task over the fact that I was ashore and still flying the flag...

...anyone got a good reference so that I can get some facts on what I seem to have done wrong???

 

[Reverend Ludd]

As a technicality I think he is correct but as with all these threads about flags there will probably be lots of debate as you say.
Personally I think these old traditions are nice to observe but I can't be bothered to get my knickers in a twist about them.

 

[PetiteFleur]

I can see your problem with it being tied on and therefore not a two second job to remove it. Mines on a standard pole and is easy to remove and stow below - however on a couple of occasions as I've motored away I've glanced back and realised I still have the ensign on the stern and had to return, remove and throw into the cockpit.
The small ensign sockets are cheap enough and you could even use a bit of old broomstick as a pole rather than a nice varnished mahogany one.
The main reason to remove the flag when not aboard (and at night) is to make the flag last longer - there's nothing worse than a really tatty ensign, faded is OK though(looks as though you are a seasoned seafarer and been places).
However if you read the 'rules' as practiced by some Yacht Clubs you have to raise it at sunrise and lower it at sunset, 'Dip' it when passing a Warship(who should dip their's in response) and of course never fly it unless the owner is aboard.

 

[BrianH]

...I fly a red ensign - I don't have a flag pole, I fly it off the backstay..
[...]
I tend to leave it up all year - one because it's a little bit of a pain to take down (being tied on etc etc),but two, because (slightly unusually in these days) I'm rather proud of my red ensign - many brave deeds have been done whilst sailing under that flag.... so I leave it up all the time.....

I used to wear my ensign on the backstay too, but from a flag halyard running through a lashed block halfway up. That way I could lower when not aboard.

Ignoring the official lowering for the hours of darkness, this was the best compromise, not just for accepted etiquette but just to minimise wear and tear. There's nothing worse than a tatty ensign (and they soon become so if left) permanently flying on unoccupied boats - I see too much of that abroad, particularly in my Italian marina, from landlubberly owners of many nationalities. If you do have pride in your ensign then lower it when not in command, as is the proper convention and, at the same time by doing so, keep it pristine.

 

[VicS]

I'm rather proud of my red ensign

In which case leaving it up 24/7 is the last thing you should be doing ! It would indicate to me a slouch of an owner who does not care a toss about his Ensign or the etiquette associated with it.

All you will need to know about Flag etiquette is in the RYA booklet C4 although I'm not sure if it is still available in printed form.
It has been revised and is now published in 3 parts on the RYA website for members to access

http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/regssafety/flagetiquette/Pages/febook.aspx

A small extract:

WHEN TO WEAR COLOURS AND
TO FLY FLAGS
Ensigns and flags should be worn at sea at all times unless racing (see Part II), remember you are
claiming the protection of your Flag State. When at anchor or in a harbour in British waters the
proper time for hoisting (raising) the Ensign is 0800 (0900 in the winter months from 1st November to 14th February inclusive). Ensigns are always lowered (struck) at sunset or 2100 local time if
earlier. All colours and flags with the exception of Flag officers’ broad pennants should be hoisted
and struck at these times.
When abroad, the local custom should be followed; generally this will be the same as in British
waters, although in most places with a temperate climate, colours are hoisted at 0800 throughout
the year while in extreme latitudes, when sunrise is later than 0900 colours are made at local
sunrise
In the UK, courtesy requires that the timing is taken from the list below in order of precedence:

•  Firstly, a vessel of the Royal Navy or a Naval shore establishment.
•  Failing that from the senior yacht club on shore.
•  Failing that from the Senior Flag Officer present (see Part II).
•  Failing all of the above from the ship’s clock.

It is accepted practice that when a crew joins the yacht within the prescribed hours then the
correct ensign will be hoisted.
The flying of Ensigns and burgees from yacht club premises is recognised and it can be assumed
that such clubs should proceed exactly as if they were registered British vessels.​

 

[Fantasie 19]

In which case leaving it up 24/7 is the last thing you should be doing ! It would indicate to me a slouch of an owner who does not care a toss about his Ensign or the etiquette associated with it.

..now don't hold back VicS - say what you really mean...

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

...it's a bit quiet round here so the following may prompt a bit of chat, but let me start by saying up front this is not a troll....

...I fly a red ensign - I don't have a flag pole, I fly it off the backstay..

I tend to leave it up all year - one because it's a little bit of a pain to take down (being tied on etc etc),but two, because (slightly unusually in these days) I'm rather proud of my red ensign - many brave deeds have been done whilst sailing under that flag.... so I leave it up all the time.....

Now I've never had any problem with this - but yesterday I was working away on the boat enjoying the sunshine and a chap came along and took me to task over the fact that I was ashore and still flying the flag...

...anyone got a good reference so that I can get some facts on what I seem to have done wrong???

Your other option would be to simply ignore him, or "take him to task" for sticking his nose in.

 

[rickym]

Or do what most of us do, put the flags up when we get on board and take 'em down when we leave.

 

[Fantasie 19]

Your other option would be to simply ignore him, or "take him to task" for sticking his nose in.

I agree that would be the normal response to such an intrusion - and to an extent that's how I responded - reasonably politely given I was amazed some complete stranger would be so rude as to march up and demand I take it down... but i'm not happy being confrontational and try to avoid it if possible especially when I have no idea if I'm in the right or wrong

The danger of course is that all the "old boys" assume you know this stuff and approach from the perspective that you already know you're doing something wrong.... I don't/didn't (hence my question)....

....it appears to be a very emotive subject and I have to be honest i'm inclined to not bother flying anything... seems an easier approach.....

 

[Zen Zero]

This is what comes of being proud of your red ensign. The thing is it's not just your Red Ensign, and other people who are equally proud of it may take exception to its being abused. Frankly, I couldn't care less (and I hereby apologise for this to the offended) but see it as a good excuse for playful banter and plastic cup of something warming and strong.

Round where I used to cruise, on the Firth of Clyde, yachties take the mickey out of each other in a friendly way for forgetting to strike their colours at the appropriate time, which usually coincides with dram time. Perhaps your chap was just trying to be friendly in an awkward way? Did you offer him a dram?

Where I cruise now, flag abuse is something appalling! The tricolore is lashed to a backstay and left there day and night, summer and winter, afloat and on the hard until the red bit has completely eroded away and, as a mickey-taking gesture, the owner is presented with a replacement by his companions.

 

[Poignard]

.
. . yesterday I was working away on the boat enjoying the sunshine and a chap came along ..

Boatyards attract bores. They hate work, and whenever they see any being done they feel duty bound to put a stop to it. They do this by engaging the worker in conversation. (Or, more accurately, subjecting them to a monologue)

Whatever you do, don't give them an excuse to latch on, otherwise you'll easily lose at least an hours work. Avoid eye contact and especially things like breaches of flag etiquette, which have the same effect as a red rag waved at a bull. Have a very noisy and dust-generating power tool handy so you can switch it on if you see one approaching; although even this may act as a trigger to some reminiscences.
"I say, is that what they call a router?"
"Yes."
"Hah. Never had such things in my day; we used to get much better results with an adze and a bit of broken glass!"
"Really?"
"Yes, the trouble nowadays is that people are frightened of hard work. If you ask my opinion . . . etc etc."

 

[rickym]

One suspects Parsifal is now ashore in the boatyard?

 

[Poignard]

One suspects Parsifal is now ashore in the boatyard?

How did you guess?

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Boatyards attract bores. They hate work, and whenever they see any being done they feel duty bound to put a stop to it. They do this by engaging the worker in conversation. (Or, more accurately, subjecting them to a monologue)

Whatever you do, don't give them an excuse to latch on, otherwise you'll easily lose at least an hours work. Avoid eye contact and especially things like breaches of flag etiquette, which have the same effect as a red rag waved at a bull. Have a very noisy and dust-generating power tool handy so you can switch it on if you see one approaching; although even this may act as a trigger to some reminiscences.
"I say, is that what they call a router?"
"Yes."
"Hah. Never had such things in my day; we used to get much better results with an adze and a bit of broken glass!"
"Really?"
"Yes, the trouble nowadays is that people are frightened of hard work. If you ask my opinion . . . etc etc."

Ok. That's page one of the survival guide to boating, but what about the other 99 pages ?

 

[nigelmercier]

Flag etiquette ...

... is mainly twaddle.

The only reason why the ensign is struck is because some Admiral realised that they would last twice as long if you did this.

Tell the interfering chap to get a life.

 

[Aeolus]

I

WHEN TO WEAR COLOURS AND
TO FLY FLAGS
In the UK, courtesy requires that the timing is taken from the list below in order of precedence:

•  Firstly, a vessel of the Royal Navy or a Naval shore establishment.
•  Failing that from the senior yacht club on shore.
•  Failing that from the Senior Flag Officer present (see Part II).
•  Failing all of the above from the ship’s clock.

senior yacht club!!!? What a load of class-ridden tosh!

 

[Searush]

... is mainly twaddle.

The only reason why the ensign is struck is because some Admiral realised that they would last twice as long if you did this.

Tell the interfering chap to get a life.

Some admiral? It was Samuel Peypes.

OP Can u reach to tie it round the backstay? That will keep it tidy, & only take down when you go home.

 

[VicS]

Oh and another thing:

You wear an Ensign. You dont fly it .. except in the situations where is is acceptable ashore, then it is flown.
Ashore in the boat yard for the winter does not count as acceptable.

 

[Sandyman]

senior yacht club!!!? What a load of class-ridden tosh!

That's about it.

Take it your not a member of the Royal Yacht Squadron then

 

[Simondjuk]

Oh and another thing:

You wear an Ensign. You dont fly it .. except in the situations where is is acceptable ashore, then it is flown.
Ashore in the boat yard for the winter does not count as acceptable.

I think it's actually the yacht which wears the ensign, not the owner.