Flag etiquette - what goes where?

[johnalison]

Thanks. When you say I was 100% right, do you mean the flag on starboard in homewaters, too? Because by now I thought that was wrong and it should always go on the port spreader.

I think I'll be upright. Why would anyone have a problem with a german flag? We've never done anything to anyone.

I think that showing your German flag to port as well as a courtesy flag to starboard is somewhat confusing. Better would be to fly a regional German flag, say Hanse, as a house flag to port to indicate your identity. Whether it goes above or below your rainbow flag is a different matter. Ignoring my last comment is purely optional, as with all my posts.

 

[lustyd]

I think that showing your German flag to port as well as a courtesy flag to starboard is somewhat confusing

I wouldn’t consider it confusing at all. Foreign vessel in German waters with a German person in the crew. It’s unnecessary, but perfectly simple as far as flag meaning goes.

 

[johnalison]

I wouldn’t consider it confusing at all. Foreign vessel in German waters with a German person in the crew. It’s unnecessary, but perfectly simple as far as flag meaning goes.

I'm easily confused, as when I approached a boat with a red ensign in distant Germany and said a few friendly words, to be met with a blank stare. The Germans on board who seemed to be the owners didn't appear to speak English.

 

[Dockhead]

It doesn’t. The port side is house flags and quite common to show either your nationality or language skills there or whatever else you want.

From what I’ve seen it’s extremely common. I fly a Cornish flag there, it’s just a house flag and you can fly what makes you happy.

You're confusing guest flags with house flags/private signals. Those are two different things, both port flag halyard. You can use a national flag or ensign as a guest flag, but not as a house flag. Unless maybe you're the King, or the Duke of Cornwall, or whatever, but the etiquette for that is beyond my ken (and kin). Cf. the RYA Flag Etiquette Manual.

Flag etiquette is a LANGUAGE. When people share the same set of rules, then particular usage of particular flags conveys information.

That's the only reason to follow the rules. If you don't care what others understand from your flags, then by all means show whatever you like. There's no flag police and no law against it. In this day of instant global communications, communication of whatever with flags is pretty quaint and not really important. So, by all means, make up your own customs, use flags as decoration, whatever. It's not a big deal.

 

[dunedin]

I'm easily confused, as when I approached a boat with a red ensign in distant Germany and said a few friendly words, to be met with a blank stare. The Germans on board who seemed to be the owners didn't appear to speak English.

Well that is a good argument for them flying a German flag at the port crosstree. Would have explained things

 

[Baggywrinkle]

So the boat is registered in the UK but I am actually german. I think this is the way to go forward:

If I remember correctly:

Stern is the boat's national flag of the country of registration, right? That's easy.

If I am in homewaters, then I can fly my german flag on the starboard spreader, right?

And if I go to foreign waters, then I fly the courtesy flag on starboard, and my german flag on port. Correct? Or does it go below the courtesy flag?

My boat is registered in the UK and I am also German, but with UK citizenship too. I sail in Croatia.

Stern or prominent at the rear of the boat (Backstay) is where the Flag of registration goes, so Red Ensign there.

Starboard spreader is where the courtesy flag goes, that is the flag of the country in whose waters and under whose jurisdiction the boat is currently navigating. If in German waters, then German.
Before you check in to foreign countries, you must fly a yellow quarantine (Q) flag under this courtesy flag until you have been cleared through customs, then you can take it down.

Your German "citizenship flag" can be flown on the port spreader if you want, it's what I do and I have a number of flags for the various nationalities I normally sail with.



The EU flag kind of compensates for the red ensign on the stern, so far I have got a better reception while flying it, at least it ensures I'm not mistaken for someone who wanted to send all the UK based Poles home.

 

[DangerousPirate]

I think that showing your German flag to port as well as a courtesy flag to starboard is somewhat confusing. Better would be to fly a regional German flag, say Hanse, as a house flag to port to indicate your identity. Whether it goes above or below your rainbow flag is a different matter. Ignoring my last comment is purely optional, as with all my posts.

Homewaters means the boat's homewaters, ie UK not Germany.

 

[DangerousPirate]

My boat is registered in the UK and I am also German, but with UK citizenship too. I sail in Croatia.

Stern or prominent at the rear of the boat (Backstay) is where the Flag of registration goes, so Red Ensign there.

Starboard spreader is where the courtesy flag goes, that is the flag of the country in whose waters and under whose jurisdiction the boat is currently navigating. If in German waters, then German.
Before you check in to foreign countries, you must fly a yellow quarantine (Q) flag under this courtesy flag until you have been cleared through customs, then you can take it down.

Your German "citizenship flag" can be flown on the port spreader if you want, it's what I do and I have a number of flags for the various nationalities I normally sail with.

View attachment 199831

The EU flag kind of compensates for the red ensign on the stern, so far I have got a better reception while flying it, at least it ensures I'm not mistaken for someone who wanted to send all the UK based Poles home.

That became needlessly political at the end. So you don't fly a german flag then since you got the EU flag?

But I think now it's getting clear, that the german flag goes on port to signal I am german but the boat is english. And if I should go to Germany, then there should be either a second flag on starboard, or just swap it from port to starboard.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

That became needlessly political at the end. So you don't fly a german flag then since you got the EU flag?

But I think now it's getting clear, that the german flag goes on port to signal I am german but the boat is english. And if I should go to Germany, then there should be either a second flag on starboard, or just swap it from port to starboard.

Yep, that about sums it up

I fly the Scottish flag as I grew up on the West Coast of Scotland, and the EU flag because I am British/German, I have a German flag for when my sons wife is on board, and sometimes I fly it anyway 'cos I have German citizenship. Unfortunately, like it or not, the english flag has become too politicised, as has the union jack - it used to be a chic design icon.

The sad fact is that even speaking English can get you ignored by waiting staff at cafes and restaurants, more so recently if you get mistaken for American, it varies by location, but I've never experienced this when speaking German. Tell them you are Scottish, or Irish, and it's all smiles and good service. Sad, I know, but I've had too many instances for it not to be a trend - it must be said that the majority couldn't care less if there is money to be made, but a frosty reception can be avoided by speaking German or displaying an affiliation to Europe in some way.

 

[Alicatt]

Yep, that about sums it up

I fly the Scottish flag as I grew up on the West Coast of Scotland,

I thought it was an 'M' flag saying you have stopped

On the fore mast at the bow we fly the home club burgee
on the starboard we fly the relevant courtesy country flag
On Portside we fly the owner's club burgee and a Saltire which is for me as my country of birth it is also a M flag for my wife's name on the stern we fly a Belgian national flag as the country of registration.

 

[Dockhead]

. . . Your German "citizenship flag" can be flown on the port spreader if you want, it's what I do and I have a number of flags for the various nationalities I normally sail with. . .

There is no such thing as a "citizenship flag" in the rules of flag etiquette. There are guest flags, and house flags.

Guest flags can be the national flags of guests on board. House flags (AKA "private signals") can be the owner's own flag, but that is required to be unique (the RYA manual says it's hard to achieve that and know for sure you have) and cannot be any national flag, signal flag, or any other flag which is recognized as something else.

You can of course ignore the rules and fly whatever flag in whatever manner you want. It's not a crime. But just be aware that it's not then part of the "language" of flag etiquette.

If you fly a German flag on the port flag halyard, it can only be interpreted as a guest flag (as house flags must not be the same as any national ensign). It means -- you've got a German guest on board. Maybe that's close enough to what you want people to know, so maybe it's good enough for you.

Someone somewhere posted that they hoist flags representing the languages spoken on board. I rather like that idea; definitely useful. But -- it's not part of flag etiquette, so won't be interpreted that way unless someone just guesses what you mean by flying them.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

There is no such thing as a "citizenship flag" in the rules of flag etiquette. There are guest flags, and house flags.

Guest flags can be the national flags of guests on board. House flags (AKA "private signals") can be the owner's own flag, but that is required to be unique (the RYA manual says it's hard to achieve that and know for sure you have) and cannot be any national flag, signal flag, or any other flag which is recognized as something else.

You can of course ignore the rules and fly whatever flag in whatever manner you want. It's not a crime. But just be aware that it's not then part of the "language" of flag etiquette.

If you fly a German flag on the port flag halyard, it can only be interpreted as a guest flag (as house flags must not be the same as any national ensign). It means -- you've got a German guest on board. Maybe that's close enough to what you want people to know, so maybe it's good enough for you.

Someone somewhere posted that they hoist flags representing the languages spoken on board. I rather like that idea; definitely useful. But -- it's not part of flag etiquette, so won't be interpreted that way unless someone just guesses what you mean by flying them.

That's why "citizenship flag" was in quotes ... obviously it was open to interpretation.

 

[lustyd]

a Saltire which is for me as my country of birth it is also a M flag

Not the same flag at all, are you sure you’re scottish?

they hoist flags representing the languages spoken on board. I rather like that idea; definitely useful. But -- it's not part of flag etiquette, so won't be interpreted that way

Everyone I know interprets them that way, why such a rigid view of flags? Outside this forum nobody cares about flag etiquette, in the real world out cruising they’re just signals, and a German flag is a great signal that at least one person aboard is from there and speaks German.

 

[seeSimon]

Yep, that about sums it up

I fly the Scottish flag as I grew up on the West Coast of Scotland, and the EU flag because I am British/German, I have a German flag for when my sons wife is on board, and sometimes I fly it anyway 'cos I have German citizenship. Unfortunately, like it or not, the english flag has become too politicised, as has the union jack - it used to be a chic design icon.

The sad fact is that even speaking English can get you ignored by waiting staff at cafes and restaurants, more so recently if you get mistaken for American, it varies by location, but I've never experienced this when speaking German. Tell them you are Scottish, or Irish, and it's all smiles and good service. Sad, I know, but I've had too many instances for it not to be a trend - it must be said that the majority couldn't care less if there is money to be made, but a frosty reception can be avoided by speaking German or displaying an affiliation to Europe in some way.

At the risk of being slightly controversial...and with due respect...

Defaulting to speaking German is not an option you'd want to be taking in some Greek mountain villages.
Not everyone, everywhere, has such short memories...

As the joke goes...

Passport control to German tourist..."occupation?"
German tourist. "No, just holidays" .

 

[Dockhead]

Everyone I know interprets them that way, why such a rigid view of flags? Outside this forum nobody cares about flag etiquette, in the real world out cruising they’re just signals, and a German flag is a great signal that at least one person aboard is from there and speaks German.

Well, sure. I don't have a problem with that.

Flag etiquette was invented to give a precise meaning to particular flags used in particular ways. As a means of communication.

Now we have radios, and even WhatsApp over Starlink, for that. So the precise rules of flag etiquette aren't really important anymore, other than as some quaint antique art.

The OP asked about flag etiquette, so FWIW those were the answers.

I even like the idea of indicating what languages are spoken on board -- could be a good conversation starter in strange ports.

 

[DangerousPirate]

Not the same flag at all, are you sure you’re scottish?

Everyone I know interprets them that way, why such a rigid view of flags? Outside this forum nobody cares about flag etiquette, in the real world out cruising they’re just signals, and a German flag is a great signal that at least one person aboard is from there and speaks German.

Honestly, the main reason why I want to fly my flag is to signal that I speak german to invite interest from other germans. If I fly the UK flag and courtesy flag only, others might not know that there are other germans in the anchorage and might refer to me as "the brit" or something.

Well, sure. I don't have a problem with that.

Flag etiquette was invented to give a precise meaning to particular flags used in particular ways. As a means of communication.

Now we have radios, and even WhatsApp over Starlink, for that. So the precise rules of flag etiquette aren't really important anymore, other than as some quaint antique art.

The OP asked about flag etiquette, so FWIW those were the answers.

I even like the idea of indicating what languages are spoken on board -- could be a good conversation starter in strange ports.

I did ask for Etiquette and how it's usually done, yes. And I am sure Etiquette and usage changes over time. Language adapts, and flags are just that.
So if everyone is doing the same thing nowadays, then that's the new Etiquette. Why use outdated flag signals that no one understands the way it was originally intended?

If everyone makes up their own rules and disregards the RYA handbook, then it's no point in doing it "by the book". The book needs to be rewritten and modernised then.

 

[Dockhead]

. . . If everyone makes up their own rules and disregards the RYA handbook, then it's no point in doing it "by the book". The book needs to be rewritten and modernised then.

If everyone makes up their own rules, then there are no rules, and you can't be sure what anyone means by any particular flag.

Just like if everyone made up his own words.

A "new etiquette book" would be different -- and might be a worthwhile project. But with no rule book in effect, then there is no more communication by flags, at least with any certainty.

But -- I think everyone agrees it doesn't matter much, in this case.

I understand what you're after. And I might even use my own German courtesy flag that way sometime! Maybe not the Russian one, though . . .

 

[DangerousPirate]

If everyone makes up their own rules, then there are no rules, and you can't be sure what anyone means by any particular flag.

The RYA unifies common behaviour. That's what rules are. They looked at what people were doing and then decided "okay, let's take the most common/logical way to do it and make it a universal rule for everyone".

They didn't just make it up out of thin air. And if people change their behaviour with time, then the RYA needs to update the rules. Just like a dictionary adds new words when they get invented. Language changes, customs change. Even laws change with time and are modernised.

Also again, very political at the end.

 

[lustyd]

They didn't just make it up out of thin air

In reality I imagine a committee of officious old men sat around thinking up additional rules until they had a full book. I don’t think much “flag etiquette“ existed aside from ensigns and courtesy flags.

 

[DangerousPirate]

In reality I imagine a committee of officious old men sat around thinking up additional rules until they had a full book. I don’t think much “flag etiquette“ existed aside from ensigns and courtesy flags.

I am pretty sure they had a good look around and saw a common theme there and just jotted it down. "Ah look chaps, they are all flying their yacht club flags on port. Makes sense! Because transom is for the ensign and starboard is busy with quarantine and courtesy flags!".

They didn't make it happen, they just observed and unified.

My guess anyway. Either way. Thanks all, I will put my flag on my port spreader from now on.