Fischer Panda Generator advice needed

[geem]

Our boat was designed with a genset as an likely extra.

It has a dedicated - and quite large - Generator Garage.

We were very lucky - the first owner never ordered a Genset but the boat came with 250KG's of lead ballast ready installed to balance a genset.

Nice ?

Our 44ft yacht was designed to have a generator from new. A walk in engine room with Perkins engine on one side of the chequer plate floor and a Perkins generator on the other side. There is a workbench and vice above the generator. Also a hatch in to the cockpit for ventilation if you are working at the bench.. If it had been a modern boat there would be a cabin where the genset is?

 

[vas]

Our 44ft yacht was designed to have a generator from new. A walk in engine room with Perkins engine on one side of the chequer plate floor and a Perkins generator on the other side. There is a workbench and vice above the generator. Also a hatch in to the cockpit for ventilation if you are working at the bench.. If it had been a modern boat there would be a cabin where the genset is?

is it the exact SAME engine for propulsion and generator? that would be something extra
[and a crane to swap over in case of propulsion engine failure ]

 

[Jabs]

I think the issue is a small diesel running continuously at 3000 RPM. Irrespective of load. Using a four pole machine reduces the engine speed to 1500 RPM hence the noise and vibration levels.
The newer philosophy is to generate DC and power an inverter. This way the engine runs at a speed to provide the power needed and the electronics provide the 50HZ output.
The small 'red' plastic cased Honda generators work in this way. Running an engine at slow speed reduces noise immensely. There are numbers other makers of inverter generators nowadays.

Electrolux make a DC generator that can be engine mounted and power an inverter. They are widely used on narrowboats and, I believe, are available in 3.5KVA models.
The main engine would need to be run at maybe a fast idle but nowhere near 3000 RPM, hence would be relatively quiet. Fuel consumption would also be lower. Maybe worth consideration.
With the price of Lithium batteries falling as well as the price of solar, increased efficiency of inverters, alternatives are growing as technology develops.

Tony.

 

[geem]

is it the exact SAME engine for propulsion and generator? that would be something extra
[and a crane to swap over in case of propulsion engine failure ]

Haha No. Main engine is 4.4 litre. Generator is 450cc

 

[jwfrary]

I think the issue is a small diesel running continuously at 3000 RPM. Irrespective of load. Using a four pole machine reduces the engine speed to 1500 RPM hence the noise and vibration levels.
The newer philosophy is to generate DC and power an inverter. This way the engine runs at a speed to provide the power needed and the electronics provide the 50HZ output.
The small 'red' plastic cased Honda generators work in this way. Running an engine at slow speed reduces noise immensely. There are numbers other makers of inverter generators nowadays.

Electrolux make a DC generator that can be engine mounted and power an inverter. They are widely used on narrowboats and, I believe, are available in 3.5KVA models.
The main engine would need to be run at maybe a fast idle but nowhere near 3000 RPM, hence would be relatively quiet. Fuel consumption would also be lower. Maybe worth consideration.
With the price of Lithium batteries falling as well as the price of solar, increased efficiency of inverters, alternatives are growing as technology develops.

Tony.

Travel powers by Electrolux are quite a good idea, but I have removed quite a few knackered ones beyond repair.

inverter gens are ok, but they also have their own problems such as load response and complicated control mechanisms.

I would fit a dc generator from polar power (available in lots of different flavours), large lithium battery bank and inverter/charger such as a multi plus

 

[sylvana]

4 years ago I had a Fischer Panda 4000S diesel generator installed on my boat at considerable expense and it was beset with problems from day one. It has turned out to be an expensive mistake.

The engine part of the generator is a Farymann 15W/18W and after 3000 hours the crankshaft broke and the engine is a write off.

I don't want to waste any more money having the engine rebuilt so will either sell the whole thing for scrap, which it is at the moment, or find another engine.

Here is my question:
Is there an engine that I can buy (not Farymann) that will drive the generator part which is still working well?

I too have a FP4000s, 500hours, serviced religiously and rinsed out. This bollox of a machine has eaten 2 light alloy manifolds resulting in saltwater everywhere and considerable expense. Worse it has now somehow allowed saltwater into the windings/ alternator and thats now scrap. The guys in FP Uk were very nice but ultimately my machine needs a £2300 new alternator! The FP is 8 years old but has been misbehaving one way or another for at least 5 years. Perhaps we could make one working genny out of our two!
if you’re reading this and thinking about which brand to buy, you have been warned!

 

[sylvana]

Thank you all for your thoughts. The FP generator has been removed from the boat and I have decided not to spend anymore money on it.

The next phase is to see whether I sell it for scrap or whether someone is interested in buying it as it stands, and the engineer who removed it is looking into that for me.

On the positive side, it's freed up a lot of space in the engine compartment.

I may be interested in buying some parts, in particular the alternator. Is this still available?

 

[Tradewinds]

I may be interested in buying some parts, in particular the alternator. Is this still available?

I wouldn't go any further down the FP road myself. Been there, spent countless hours with running repairs. Bought from new - gave it away in the end. It was like having a boil lanced. Life without was far more enjoyable.
You said it yourself

This bollox of a machine

- heed your own words.

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I've had much the same experience with Fischer Panda Generator. I've had 2, a 4800i and a 5000i, both utter and very expensive disasters.
Both generator are variable speed engines, generating 3phase power at around 400v. This is then rectified to DC and then re-inverted to a stable 50Hz 240v AC. In principle this is a great idea, but in my experience over about 10 year, they have been nothing but trouble and have cost me a fortune. Basically, I think that they are very, very poorly engineered.
The first one was a 4800i, with the Farymann single cylinder diesel, within two years I had spent more that 50% of the original cost in spare parts. I complained and we came to a deal, they replaced it with a ex-demonstrator 5000i, with a Kubota engine. The ex-demonstrator came with zero hours on the clock, but very obviously wasn't anywhere near new. The basic Kubota engine has been OK, all the problems have been with the bits added on my Fischer Panda.
The final straw can last June, when I was anchored in a very remote location. I started the generator and the cabin filled with smoke, long story, but the flexible exhaust pipe had fallen off the water injection elbow, and the smoke was diesel fumes. On further investigation, the exhaust system supplied by Fischer Panda, with the generator, was 40mm ID, the exhaust elbow 35mm ID, and because the flexible exhaust pipe is wire reinforced it is very difficult to make a secure connection.
As I said, very poor engineering, I don't understand why anyone would supply a generator and exhaust system with mismatching connections, it's just asking for trouble.
The salt water which got sprayed around got into the generator and damaged the windings.
The generator was removed in July 2021 and returned to Fischer Panda UK, with along list of problems.
I was quote around £8,500 to repair it.
I refused point blank, and again we came to a compromise, to which I agreed ....... after numerous reminders, I'm still waiting for the generator to be returned.
In the meantime I've completely written off Fischer Panda, and I've installed a Whisper Power Piccolo 5, and have all the papers ready to take Fischer Panda to the small claims court, when they eventually wake-up.
In summary, based on my experience, I would not recommend anyone to go anywhere near Fischer Panda UK.

As a Post Script, I can see very little wrong with operating a small diesel engine at a speed which varies with load, and then using electronics to change the variable frequency 3 phase AC, into a stable 50Hz 240v power supply. The electronics aren't particularly complicated, the power and voltage rating are not that high. It just needs good design and production. Modern electric cars have this technology at much higher voltages and power rating, eg a Hyundai Ionic 5, AWD will accelerate a 2 ton car from 0 to 63 mph in about 5 second using a 225kW, 800volt system, with a 5year unlimited guarantee.

 

[geem]

I've had much the same experience with Fischer Panda Generator. I've had 2, a 4800i and a 5000i, both utter and very expensive disasters.
Both generator are variable speed engines, generating 3phase power at around 400v. This is then rectified to DC and then re-inverted to a stable 50Hz 240v AC. In principle this is a great idea, but in my experience over about 10 year, they have been nothing but trouble and have cost me a fortune. Basically, I think that they are very, very poorly engineered.
The first one was a 4800i, with the Farymann single cylinder diesel, within two years I had spent more that 50% of the original cost in spare parts. I complained and we came to a deal, they replaced it with a ex-demonstrator 5000i, with a Kubota engine. The ex-demonstrator came with zero hours on the clock, but very obviously wasn't anywhere near new. The basic Kubota engine has been OK, all the problems have been with the bits added on my Fischer Panda.
The final straw can last June, when I was anchored in a very remote location. I started the generator and the cabin filled with smoke, long story, but the flexible exhaust pipe had fallen off the water injection elbow, and the smoke was diesel fumes. On further investigation, the exhaust system supplied by Fischer Panda, with the generator, was 40mm ID, the exhaust elbow 35mm ID, and because the flexible exhaust pipe is wire reinforced it is very difficult to make a secure connection.
As I said, very poor engineering, I don't understand why anyone would supply a generator and exhaust system with mismatching connections, it's just asking for trouble.
The salt water which got sprayed around got into the generator and damaged the windings.
The generator was removed in July 2021 and returned to Fischer Panda UK, with along list of problems.
I was quote around £8,500 to repair it.
I refused point blank, and again we came to a compromise, to which I agreed ....... after numerous reminders, I'm still waiting for the generator to be returned.
In the meantime I've completely written off Fischer Panda, and I've installed a Whisper Power Piccolo 5, and have all the papers ready to take Fischer Panda to the small claims court, when they eventually wake-up.
In summary, based on my experience, I would not recommend anyone to go anywhere near Fischer Panda UK.

As a Post Script, I can see very little wrong with operating a small diesel engine at a speed which varies with load, and then using electronics to change the variable frequency 3 phase AC, into a stable 50Hz 240v power supply. The electronics aren't particularly complicated, the power and voltage rating are not that high. It just needs good design and production. Modern electric cars have this technology at much higher voltages and power rating, eg a Hyundai Ionic 5, AWD will accelerate a 2 ton car from 0 to 63 mph in about 5 second using a 225kW, 800volt system, with a 5year unlimited guarantee.

I think that the less electronics on an engine the better. Electronics don't like heat or a salt, damp environment. They also tend to cost a lot to replace. The variable speed aspect is an economy measure. I would rather be 10% worse off on fuel and have a reliable machine.
If you are cruising in far flung places, electrics can be fixed. Electronics can't. You need to identify the problem and order parts, often from the other side or the world

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I understand where you are coming from, and it’s certainly true that electronics can be a problem on leisure craft, and they are difficult to repair. It’s often not a component swap, it’s a subsystems swap.
However, my take on that is that, in many cases, it comes down to poor design.
Going back to the car analogy, I have 10-year-old Subaru, I live in the NE of Scotland, snow, ice, rain, fog, and salt on the roads is a fact of life for at least 4 months of the year. I drive though salty water at 60mph (or sometimes more). It also gets hot. The car lives outside on the street, in 10 years and 80,000miles of motoring, I haven’t had a single electronic problem. The car is CAN Bus controlled and would stop in it’s tracks if there was a serious electronics problem. It’s a comparatively well-designed car.
There’s no real reason, or excuse for, often safety critical system, not being designed to the same standards as cars have been for at least the last ten years.

 

[geem]

I understand where you are coming from, and it’s certainly true that electronics can be a problem on leisure craft, and they are difficult to repair. It’s often not a component swap, it’s a subsystems swap.
However, my take on that is that, in many cases, it comes down to poor design.
Going back to the car analogy, I have 10-year-old Subaru, I live in the NE of Scotland, snow, ice, rain, fog, and salt on the roads is a fact of life for at least 4 months of the year. I drive though salty water at 60mph (or sometimes more). It also gets hot. The car lives outside on the street, in 10 years and 80,000miles of motoring, I haven’t had a single electronic problem. The car is CAN Bus controlled and would stop in it’s tracks if there was a serious electronics problem. It’s a comparatively well-designed car.
There’s no real reason, or excuse for, often safety critical system, not being designed to the same standards as cars have been for at least the last ten years.

Haha, I also have a Subaru. It's 15 years old. Runs like a dream. You are right that good engineering/design should make these things more reliable.

 

[Supertramp]

Often reliability happens when engineers stop designing and marketing and revert to continuous improvement and refinement. Subaru and others are not at the cutting edge of design and technology but do place value on reliability and durability.

Good post, its decided me to ignore my FP generator that I never use and get some solar panels.