First Rule Advice Sought

[Donside]

Really, I want advice about possibly raising a complaint against another boats person.

An incident occurred at the weekend.
I am a 36 ft sailing vessel, sailing efficiently on a close reach in 12 kn breeze, making 6kn., approaching a red can buoy on starboard tack
A power boat, approx 60 ft making approx 12 to 15 kn is approaching from my port side, heading directly towards me.
I hold my course.
After 30 secs, there is no change in the powerboats course
After 1 min, there is no change, and he is now 100 m away.
I am in danger of being hit amidships at considerable speed
I bear away.
The powerboat passes within 20m without reducing speed.

After I calm down, I raise the coastguard on vhf, reporting the vessel’s name and a description of the incident
The coastguard takes details, asks questions and offers me the opportunity to raise a complaint.

I know nothing of such a procedure, nor its implications.

So, esteemed forumites,
1 what would you have done?
2 what should I do now?

Thanks

Mr Don

 

[Seven Spades]

I would make a report here:-

Maritime - CHIRP

It could be the same system as the coastguard but if not do both.

 

[harvey38]

I'd report it.

There is a similar system for aircraft, sadly I filed quite a few airprox. reports .

 

[ylop]

The coastguard takes details, asks questions and offers me the opportunity to raise a complaint.

I know nothing of such a procedure, nor its implications.

Me neither, I assume you are in the U.K.?, I suppose theoretically the MCA enforcement branch could investigate, perhaps more likely if the 60’ motor vessel was being operated commercially.

Do you call the police everytime a driver pulls out of junction without giving way causing you to take evasive action?

But you called the CG so presumably YOU were expecting them to do something?

So, esteemed forumites,
1 what would you have done?

Too difficult to say unless you are actually there but when sailing in narrow channels I’m always conscious that other vessel may interpret the rules on sailing vessels not impeding them differently to me. In all potential collision situations I’m generally a chicken, so would likely have taken avoiding action earlier than you did. It’s not clear to me if you only became aware of the collision risk 1min before or if you took any steps to alert the skipper that you were unclear of his intentions? If you did only have 1 min you probably didn’t have time - but if you only had 1min what are you not telling us - did one of you change course shortly before?

2 what should I do now?

Personally I’d enjoy my sailing - life is too short for being angry at everyone who doesn’t give way when they should. Theoretically if MCA investigated and prosecuted you could waste days of your life waiting to give evidence in a court room.

 

[Stemar]

Yes, a CHIRP report. They will investigate. I don't think they prosecute, but words will be had, which might just prevent Captain Muppet from running someone down for real next time.

 

[Donside]

As I expected, there must be many similar incidents on any day, and there’s nothing to be done.
I phoned the coastguard this morning to log a complaint.
The coastguard , in this case Belfast, have been unfailingly helpful on both my vhf call and today by phone.
They took all details, reporting it all to Glasgow, while saying that because there was no damage, there is really nothing to be done.
My blood pressure was not monitored, therefore can not be counted as damaged.
The incident really shocked me, and my crew, as the other boat showed no regard for the lives, safety of others.
If I had not taken evasive action he could not possibly have stopped. Any evasive action he could have taken at that speed would have been spectacular, if not catastrophic .
My bp has risen, just writing this.

Thanks all for your responses , and safe sailing everyone.

 

[footsoldier]

Yes, a CHIRP report. They will investigate.

Genuinely curious - what is the likely outcome, when it will be very much one side's word against another's. What penalty is likely?

I have always put such incidents down to experience - trust no-one, they're all out to kill me, etc. etc. and get on with my life.

 

[madabouttheboat]

Really, I want advice about possibly raising a complaint against another boats person.

An incident occurred at the weekend.
I am a 36 ft sailing vessel, sailing efficiently on a close reach in 12 kn breeze, making 6kn., approaching a red can buoy on starboard tack
A power boat, approx 60 ft making approx 12 to 15 kn is approaching from my port side, heading directly towards me.
I hold my course.
After 30 secs, there is no change in the powerboats course
After 1 min, there is no change, and he is now 100 m away.
I am in danger of being hit amidships at considerable speed
I bear away.
The powerboat passes within 20m without reducing speed.

After I calm down, I raise the coastguard on vhf, reporting the vessel’s name and a description of the incident
The coastguard takes details, asks questions and offers me the opportunity to raise a complaint.

I know nothing of such a procedure, nor its implications.

So, esteemed forumites,
1 what would you have done?
2 what should I do now?

Thanks

Mr Don

There is a lot of context missing here. Were you in a channel? Was there any speed limits in place? Was there room outside the channel to navigate safely? What was the direction of buoyage in relation to your course? The chances are that the other person saw the whole thing very differently. Not saying they are right or wrong, but two sides of the story are likely very different. 20m sounds far too close, but was it really 20m? If the channel was only 40m wide, 20m might have been as much as they could give. It does sound like the other boat acted badly, but could you have done more to alleviate the situation?

 

[benjenbav]

Really, I want advice about possibly raising a complaint against another boats person.

An incident occurred at the weekend.
I am a 36 ft sailing vessel, sailing efficiently on a close reach in 12 kn breeze, making 6kn., approaching a red can buoy on starboard tack
A power boat, approx 60 ft making approx 12 to 15 kn is approaching from my port side, heading directly towards me.
I hold my course.
After 30 secs, there is no change in the powerboats course
After 1 min, there is no change, and he is now 100 m away.
I am in danger of being hit amidships at considerable speed
I bear away.
The powerboat passes within 20m without reducing speed.

After I calm down, I raise the coastguard on vhf, reporting the vessel’s name and a description of the incident
The coastguard takes details, asks questions and offers me the opportunity to raise a complaint.

I know nothing of such a procedure, nor its implications.

So, esteemed forumites,
1 what would you have done?
2 what should I do now?

Thanks

Mr Don

I think the CG may just have been using official terminology for your asking the authorities to investigate.

If you don’t choose to complain they won’t take things further. If you do make an official complaint they will look at it and then make a decision whether or not to take things further. If they do it’s out of your hands.

So, in short the CG was probably asking, ‘do you want us to open a file or are you happy just blowing off steam?’

Others have mentioned the means by which you would complain if you decide to, ie the form that needs to be filed.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Firth of Clyde, Kyles of Bute or Cumbrae gap, Largs channel? The last two weekends have seen a lot of motor boats out and about, many more than normal because of the good weather. All that passed me, including some at buoys passed as expected with no drama. However, a few were very fast and closer, but irritating rather than threatening.

I think the OP is wise to report the matter. If the boat has been identified by the OP and someone addresses the matter with the motorboat owner, it may just raise a perspective that reduces a risk of collision in the future, which is a good thing.

I would have reported, you should continue the process, but really no idea what that means beyond raising a CHIRP and your Coastguard calls.

 

[Sandy]

So, esteemed forumites,
1 what would you have done?
2 what should I do now?

1. Changed course much earlier - it is also your responsibility to avoid a collision. Did you sound five blasts on your horn?
   
   
2. Pour yourself a double or in extremis a quadruple of your favourite tipple and mark it down to experience.

 

[RogerJolly]

How is the news not full of accidents with powerboats colliding or washing people overboard? Out on a busy Solent weekend, it seems a miracle.

 

[Never Grumble]

Changed course much earlier - it is also your responsibility to avoid a collision. Did you sound five blasts on your horn?

its the problem with smaller more manoeuvrable vessels if you changed course for everyone 'just in case' then you would be zig zagging everywhere ... five short blasts similar issue.

There is a lot of context missing here. Were you in a channel? Was there any speed limits in place? Was there room outside the channel to navigate safely? What was the direction of buoyage in relation to your course? The chances are that the other person saw the whole thing very differently. Not saying they are right or wrong, but two sides of the story are likely very different. 20m sounds far too close, but was it really 20m? If the channel was only 40m wide, 20m might have been as much as they could give. It does sound like the other boat acted badly, but could you have done more to alleviate the situation?

some motorboats will also incorrectly believe they are constrained by their draught ... because they are longer ... when their draught is actually less than the yacht and they are surrounded by loads of sufficient depth water. I'd suggest it's much easier in the circumstances the OP outlines for the motorboat to make an early and clear alteration of course. Isn't that what you would do?

 

[justanothersailboat]

I think lots of motor-boat users are well-behaved, careful observers of colregs. But the ones who aren't really stick in the memory! Especially when there's loads of space, loads of visibility, and conditions are rather on the upper edge of "fun" (as happened to me recently... )

 

[ylop]

its the problem with smaller more manoeuvrable vessels if you changed course for everyone 'just in case' then you would be zig zagging everywhere ...

But the OP has not explained if rule 9 applied (or the other skipper may have thought it did) or how it got to 90s/100m before he determined that 17(b) applied rather than applying 17(a)(ii) as an early intervention.

five short blasts similar issue.

i've never used 5 short blasts in real life because except in poorer visibility my fog horn is stored at the nav station, as by the time I go down the companionway, grab it and come back up, make the signal and wait to see if the recipient has got the message and taken avoiding action I could simply have moved around them - even if that means starting the engine to do so.

I'd suggest it's much easier in the circumstances the OP outlines for the motorboat to make an early and clear alteration of course. Isn't that what you would do?

I've no idea because the OP has only given us half the information.

Yes, a CHIRP report. They will investigate.

They have no investigational powers and the recipient can simply stick their message in the bin. Whilst some owners/operators might be concerned the nature of this report will be "an anonymous (chirp don't tell them your name) 36ft sailing vessel says you failed to give way". Unless they have their own concerns about the skipper or are getting lots of complaints they will likely put at least as much weight on any explanation he provides.

I don't think they prosecute,

They 100% do not prosecute. The whole point of the CHIRP scheme is to encourage improvement in safety practice not force the other party into a denial/defensive position. Occassionally they might pass information to an authority/regulator but not near miss col regs stuff.

but words will be had,

They don't "have words" either - that's not usually a good way to get people on board. They will alert the other party to a concern.

which might just prevent Captain Muppet from running someone down for real next time.

Or might make him hostile to yachts! His version of events might well be interesting though - but it might be totally contradictory to the OP! He may well have recorded data that backs up his account, speed, course changes, proximity to the navigation bouy, call to a VTS or general broadcast about his planned movements (depending on any local rules) - they might make his account more credible than the OP's.

 

[Never Grumble]

1. But the OP has not explained if rule 9 applied (or the other skipper may have thought it did) or 2. how it got to 90s/100m before he determined that 17(b) applied rather than applying 17(a)(ii) as an early intervention.

3. i've never used 5 short blasts in real life because except in poorer visibility my fog horn is stored at the nav station, as by the time I go down the companionway, grab it and come back up, make the signal and wait to see if the recipient has got the message and taken avoiding action I could simply have moved around them - even if that means starting the engine to do so.

I've no idea because the OP has only given us half the information.

1. No he didn't mention narrow channels and anyway its unlikely to be the situation here but I see lots of nonsense regarding this rule from people usually with motorboats who dont appreciate the characteristics of different classes of vessels. Loose knowledge of the rules drives me mad.
2. I think I answered that above.
3. I have albeit from the bridge of a warship. On the yacht mine is stored in a locker next to the helm.
4. If he (OP) is under sail at 6 knots it's easier for the faster motorboat who is supposed in any case to keep clear to make an early and obvious manoeuvre. Mind some yacht owners are as bad.

 

[capnsensible]

Simply move on......

 

[Mark-1]

Really, I want advice about possibly raising a complaint against another boats person.

An incident occurred at the weekend.
I am a 36 ft sailing vessel, sailing efficiently on a close reach in 12 kn breeze, making 6kn., approaching a red can buoy on starboard tack
A power boat, approx 60 ft making approx 12 to 15 kn is approaching from my port side, heading directly towards me.
I hold my course.
After 30 secs, there is no change in the powerboats course
After 1 min, there is no change, and he is now 100 m away.
I am in danger of being hit amidships at considerable speed
I bear away.
The powerboat passes within 20m without reducing speed.

After I calm down, I raise the coastguard on vhf, reporting the vessel’s name and a description of the incident
The coastguard takes details, asks questions and offers me the opportunity to raise a complaint.

I know nothing of such a procedure, nor its implications.

So, esteemed forumites,
1 what would you have done?
2 what should I do now?

Thanks

Mr Don

So you bore off (is that really the past tense of "bear away") and he went down your starboard side wheras if you hadn't you reckon he would have t boned you port side? Or woudl it have been more of a glancing blow on the port side? If he eventually went down your port side then you moved closer to him not further away.

I'm probably taking you too literally here but at 15 knots he'd take 13 seconds to cover 100m. In that 13 seconds you'd cover 40m. So depending on angles potentially he was going to pass ~20m to port of you and your change of course sent him ~20m the other side including a period where you moved him onto a collision course when he wasn't before. So potentially you made the situation initally much worse and then no better.

So, I'm not 100% sure you are completely in the right based on what you've told us. However your numbers are clearly estimates so let's assume your change of course did avoid a collision...

1) I'd have done what you did right off onto a broad reach, but way earlier. Yes, I have an obligation to stand on but I also have a personal interest in not getting my boat smashed up. (Also it seems in this situation it was never apparent that he wasn't going to avoid you depending on your definition of apparent.)

2) I wouldn't bother reporting it, but I do think reporting it is the right thing to do. .


I'm pretty sure I know his version of events. Either he was on his phone and not looking out or he regards the space he gave the OP as "plenty". (He might say he could get a bus through that gap, which he could, although it's pretty inconsiderate.)

Serious question: Did he wave or give any indication that he'd seen you all along?

Is the AIS track of the MOB available online? It would be interesting to see if it made any course alterations.

One more thought. If I see people I know out and about I will usually make a beeline for them to say hello. It took me a few times before I realized I was really scaring some of them, everyone has a their own perception of 'close'. Maybe this guy thought "Oh there's my buddy, I'll go past to say hello.". Or maybe he used to own a Sigma 362 (or whatever) and went past to take a look. None of which excuses it but it would suggest there was no danger.

 

[billskip]

Simply move on......

You hum it ...I'll play it....

 

[ylop]

1. No he didn't mention narrow channels and anyway its unlikely to be the situation here but I see lots of nonsense regarding this rule from people usually with motorboats who dont appreciate the characteristics of different classes of vessels. Loose knowledge of the rules drives me mad.

Well there's a red bouy marking something! It sounds like he's in the Clyde, most but not all of those mark a channel.

2. I think I answered that above.

No your position seems to be "you can't change course early for everyone". But how early is early. If you are going to wait till 90s to assess if there's a risk of collision and make your final desperate turn at 30s, the inevitable question is why not just make that turn a minute before and save yourself the stress. You don't need to pre-emptively turn for everyone, or zig zag around, but you also don't need to wait until the very last moment to realise that its either a game of chicken or they haven't seen you/don't interpret the rules the same as you.

3. I have albeit from the bridge of a warship. On the yacht mine is stored in a locker next to the helm.

I don't think I've ever heard a yacht make 5 blasts? mine is almost certainly more accessible at the bottom of the companionway than the cockpit locker - where rarely used stuff seems to migrate deep into the cave - i'd probably need to get the headtorch (stored with the horn!) to find anything in the cockpit locker! Its a bit like using your horn in the car - if you've got time to react and do that your probably didn't really need to... different on a ship where theres much more "notice", less steerage, and a horn you can hear from much further away.

4. If he (OP) is under sail at 6 knots it's easier for the faster motorboat who is supposed in any case to keep clear to make an early and obvious manoeuvre. Mind some yacht owners are as bad.

If the OP had provided proper details I would agree, but there's just enough missing detail that maybe it's not as clear cut as you've imagined it. Mark-1 is probably right - either the Mobo didn't keep a proper lookout in which case leaving it late helps nobody OR the mobo thinks he has done enough (and perhaps the OP didn't see his early and obvious move!) but too close for your comfort - then add your own safety factor, but playing chicken for and extra 60 seconds seems to help nobody.