First river cruiser, no real experience, asking for trouble?

[Murv]

So, assuming the sea trial goes well tomorrow, we'll be buying our first ever cruiser.
Although I've been on a lot of small boats at sea, I have no experience of driving (piloting?) a cruiser on the rivers, just a few Months in a 12' fishing dingy with an outboard

A local engineer will take me out for the day to show me the ropes (no pun intended) for £100.00.
Money well spent or is it not too hard?

I appreciate that it will all be down to the individual, so just looking for general opinions really.

Boat is a Seamaster 23 with Mercruiser 120 inboard.

 

[Momac]

My wife and I did some boat handling training before we bought a boat. The trainig helped but certainly didn't turn us into experts. Even so I think it was worth the expense.

Take your time and you will be fine.
Never try to use power to get out of trouble.

 

[macnorton]

If you can handle a small boat at sea the Seamaster 23 will be quite dosile,but wait till the flow recedes before you take it out.


m

 

[oldgit]

Avoid river if flow is high.Unlike in the estuary there is simply no space to manoeuvre if things go wrong and if you are unfamilar with the boat it will probably be too late when you get the boat to react.Make sure the engine is 100% OK before you set out,make sure engine does not stall when going into gear from idle.
Presume it is on outdrive,absolutely VITAL VITAL VITAL it has been thoroughly checked over before purchase by somebody who knows what they are dealing with.
Old outdrives if not maintained properly are the bane of boat owners.

Pick your day and have fun.

 

[Murv]

Thanks all.

We had an engineer in to do the river trial today, didn't go too well as it broke down twice, not great when the river was pushing through quite hard. There's absolutely no way I could've handled it and was extremely grateful that we'd got someone in to do it!

The engineer is checking it out in the week (engine sounds fine, seems to be a carb' problem) and we'll take it from there.
I think I will pay for some training though, if it was just out on the open river then I'd be quite happy to go and play whilst very few other boats are around (assuming the river has slowed a bit) but I don't want to try the fine handling required in marinas to get the thing out on the river.
Thanks oldgit, the outdrive was overhauled last Year apparently, but will ask the engineer to ensure all is well before committing.

 

[No Regrets]

Seriously, old Petrol engine?

Not a great choice on an outdrive, is it too late to change your mind on that boat?

 

[Murv]

No, it's not too late.
Are outdrives that bad? the engineer seemed to quite rate the unit that was fitted (OMC I think he may have said?)

I think our budget is too low for a diesel cruiser that will sleep Four. Happy to be corrected though, or is an outboard preferable?

 

[Ramage]

Outboard or diesel inboard for choice. Shaft drive better than outdrives which get very expensive as they age.

Petrol inboards need great care, any build up of fumes or fuel leaks can and will cause an explosion.

An experienced friend of mine had his boat catch light on its first outing after a boat safety inspection. She burned to the waterline and subsequently sank.

It was his 4th boat. He had previously had an outboard powered boat, followed by a single diesel inboard, then two twin engined petrol powered boats.

 

[Murv]

Thanks Paul, appreciated.
I think our small budget will dictate the powerplant and drive but will have another search.
I will certainly investigate automatic fire extinguisher options though if we do end up with the petrol

Just had a quick look, would something like this be sufficient?

http://simplyextinguishers.co.uk/2kg-automatic-fire-extinguisher.html

 

[Deefor]

Where are you going to keep the Seamaster 23, in a marina? Do they have petrol on site or where's the nearest place on the river that does? Or do you fancy lugging containers down to the boat every time and decanting the fuel into your tank with some potential obvious consequences? Bear in mind that marina petrol could be £1.70 per litre or more .

If you go the outboard route, a 25lt portable tank might give you 20 hours cruising and then simply take the tank home with you and refuel it at any garage. Outboards require less maintenance and there's no stern drive to worry about.

So, IMO, on your budget, the outboard route might be more cost effective. Then again, early Freeman's can be had for under £10k with a diesel and shaftdrive http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/TllBWTAxLU5ZSDEzOTB+TllBWTAx=-Freeman_23.html

 

[alruss]

Hi, this scare stuff about out drives and petrol engines gets on my nerves, I have two 44yr old out drives on 2ltr petrol engines, the boat is forty four years old and has not a single scorch mark in the engine room. If you like the boat, and it is mechanically alright, buy it. Petrol in cans is a pain but how much are you going to use? with one engine at low speed on the river. Good luck with your choice.

 

[BSSOffice]

Thanks all.
(engine sounds fine, seems to be a carb' problem)

It is very important to ensure that carb problems are fixed before venturing out - or even starting the engine.

Use your nose, if there is a smell of petrol about the engine space or even boat, make sure the petrol system from filler to carb drip tray is completely and very thoroughly checked over.

In our experience of studying boat explosion events, a poor running petrol engine is one of several key indicators that there may be something to address, especially if combined with the petrol smell.

 

[Murv]

Where are you going to keep the Seamaster 23, in a marina? Do they have petrol on site or where's the nearest place on the river that does? Or do you fancy lugging containers down to the boat every time and decanting the fuel into your tank with some potential obvious consequences? Bear in mind that marina petrol could be £1.70 per litre or more .

If you go the outboard route, a 25lt portable tank might give you 20 hours cruising and then simply take the tank home with you and refuel it at any garage. Outboards require less maintenance and there's no stern drive to worry about.

So, IMO, on your budget, the outboard route might be more cost effective. Then again, early Freeman's can be had for under £10k with a diesel and shaftdrive http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/TllBWTAxLU5ZSDEzOTB+TllBWTAx=-Freeman_23.html

Many thanks for that, we did have a look at a Freeman a couple of weeks ago.
It was a beautiful boat, the quality of the interior woodwork was better, by some margin, than anything else we'd looked at.
Problem was, it was just too narrow.
With the Three of us, and the broker onboard, trying to convince us how ideal it would be got slightly farcical as we all shuffled around trying to make way for each other!
The beam on the Seamaster is nearly 3' wider which seems to make a disproportional difference to the amount of room on board.

In actual fact there is nowhere on the non tidal Medway that sells petrol! and, only two marinas offer diesel.
Lugging the stuff about and refueling on the river (marinas will not allow refueling inside due to insurance requirements)
It seems a little crazy to me but the majority of boats we see are petrol so it's obviously not that big a problem.

Hi, this scare stuff about out drives and petrol engines gets on my nerves, I have two 44yr old out drives on 2ltr petrol engines, the boat is forty four years old and has not a single scorch mark in the engine room. If you like the boat, and it is mechanically alright, buy it. Petrol in cans is a pain but how much are you going to use? with one engine at low speed on the river. Good luck with your choice.

Thanks for that. We did have a good chat about it last night, and as my Wife pointed out, it's lasted this long without any problems.
I will investigate the possibility of an automatic extinguisher though and will make sure that the fuel system is always in top order.
from the reading we've done, it appears that even with these old, relatively large petrol motors, at a maximum of 6 knots then fuel consumption is low.
I'm happy if we burn a couple of gallons on a days cruising which seems to be the norm from what we can make out.

It is very important to ensure that carb problems are fixed before venturing out - or even starting the engine.

Use your nose, if there is a smell of petrol about the engine space or even boat, make sure the petrol system from filler to carb drip tray is completely and very thoroughly checked over.

In our experience of studying boat explosion events, a poor running petrol engine is one of several key indicators that there may be something to address, especially if combined with the petrol smell.

Thank you for your comments.
I do have a sensitive nose to petrol, and there definitely wasn't any indication of a leak.
The seller contacted us last night to say he'd solved the running problems, an engineer is going to check it over on Tuesday and if all is well we will repeat the exercise of our engineer thoroughly checking and river trialing it next weekend.
I've made it clear that we only buy it if it's in perfect running order. If it's not, we're going to walk away and resume the hunt.

Thanks for all the advice,

Chris

 

[tinkicker0]

No problem having a well maintained petrol engine on the river, in fact they run cleaner and fare better than diesels at river speeds. Nothing worse than getting stuck behind a smoky old diesel in need of an injector refurb.

However I would strongly recommend the fitting of a bilge blower to clear any potential fumes from the engine bay before starting after a lay up or after refuelling.

The lack of or price of petrol on the water is a big downer and I use 2x 5 gall plastimo outboard motor portable fuel tanks for transporting fuel to the boat.
Using these you can carry a decent amount and still comply with petregs. Plastimo ones esp good as they have a quantity gauge fitted so the spotty yoof behind the counter knows they are not merely plastic jerrycans.

To the stack pipes I have fitted self sealing valves and have a corresponding male connector on an outboard fuel line and primer bulb assembly.

Simply open the fuel filler, put a fuel tank on the transom, stick the pipe in the filler, push the connector into the valve and vapour pressure usually starts pushing fuel out.
When the flow establishes, open the vent on the tank and it syphons out nicely.
If insufficient vapour pressure or you forget to open the vent, then the primer bulb will re-establish the flow.

Not a drop spilled with this method.

 

[oldgit]

Thanks Paul, appreciated.
I think our small budget will dictate the powerplant and drive but will have another search.
I will certainly investigate automatic fire extinguisher options though if we do end up with the petrol

Just had a quick look, would something like this be sufficient?

http://simplyextinguishers.co.uk/2kg-automatic-fire-extinguisher.html

As others have stated petrol may be your only choice on your budget and anyway most people will have started out with petrol as did I.
However from bitter memory most frequent problems occur not from the safety aspect but from reliability.
Worn carbs and poorly maintained electrics will be the main problem causing stalling or just simply failure to start.
Is there any paperwork to show outdrive has been worked on/serviced/repaired or even looked at in past couple of years.
As a buyer you are in a very strong buying position at the moment due to being wrong time of year to sell and financial climate.Hundreds of boats out there at moment and be very suprised if you do not have to look at 15/20 boats before one will stand stand out in condition and price.
Loads of stuff out there in your price bracket and do not be afraid to bid way below asking prices ...start 50% and you can always go up

 

[Murv]

No problem having a well maintained petrol engine on the river, in fact they run cleaner and fare better than diesels at river speeds. Nothing worse than getting stuck behind a smoky old diesel in need of an injector refurb.

However I would strongly recommend the fitting of a bilge blower to clear any potential fumes from the engine bay before starting after a lay up or after refuelling.

The lack of or price of petrol on the water is a big downer and I use 2x 5 gall plastimo outboard motor portable fuel tanks for transporting fuel to the boat.
Using these you can carry a decent amount and still comply with petregs. Plastimo ones esp good as they have a quantity gauge fitted so the spotty yoof behind the counter knows they are not merely plastic jerrycans.

To the stack pipes I have fitted self sealing valves and have a corresponding male connector on an outboard fuel line and primer bulb assembly.

Simply open the fuel filler, put a fuel tank on the transom, stick the pipe in the filler, push the connector into the valve and vapour pressure usually starts pushing fuel out.
When the flow establishes, open the vent on the tank and it syphons out nicely.
If insufficient vapour pressure or you forget to open the vent, then the primer bulb will re-establish the flow.

Not a drop spilled with this method.

Fantastic, thanks for an extremely useful post.
As per a lot of the advice I receive here, I had to google some of it and am now much wiser!
The bilge blower looks to be an absolute no-brainer for the price they're available at, I will certainly install one if we do end up with the petrol.

As others have stated petrol may be your only choice on your budget and anyway most people will have started out with petrol as did I.
However from bitter memory most frequent problems occur not from the safety aspect but from reliability.
Worn carbs and poorly maintained electrics will be the main problem causing stalling or just simply failure to start.
Is there any paperwork to show outdrive has been worked on/serviced/repaired or even looked at in past couple of years.
As a buyer you are in a very strong buying position at the moment due to being wrong time of year to sell and financial climate.Hundreds of boats out there at moment and be very suprised if you do not have the look at 15/20 boats before one will stand stand out in condition and price.
Loads of stuff out there in your price bracket and do not be afraid to bid way below asking prices ...start 50% and you can always go up

Thank you for that, we certainly have looked at a lot of boats!
Funnily enough, the Seamaster was actually one of the first ones we looked at but we kept on hunting before realising that it was actually the best of the bunch for our needs (and budget)
It is quite amazing what sort of discounts people are resorting to, if we just had an extra 3-4K then we'd be comfortably looking at far more modern Turbo diesels with heaters fitted. But, we have to stick within budget for our first boat.
Re the price, if all goes ahead we are actually buying at less than 60% of the asking price, and about 40% of the price it was originally listed at! (although the original price was extremely over optimistic in my opinion!)

EDIT: Forgot to add, there is no paperwork showing the servicing carried out, the old owner is a mechanic and so did all the work himself. I know that it all sounds a little suspect, but the engineer has verified that he has seen the owner working on the boat and is familiar with him but we have to take a bit of a chance with it.
It seems worth it to me, and based on the engineers report, but will ensure we're happy before buying.

 

[Lakesailor]

From a lake perspective, similar to rivers in that you can't get lost or come to too much harm, an engine that fails is an enormously annoying feature.
Not knowing if it will start or if it will stall can prey on your mind.
You wife's assertion that it has run OK until now could just mean that it has had it's best years and you are about to experience it's decline.
I reckon you are being very generous to favour it after a dicey test run.

I'd keep looking. It's only November yet.

 

[boatone]

I'd keep looking. It's only November yet.

+1

 

[oldgit]

EDIT: Forgot to add, there is no paperwork showing the servicing carried out, the old owner is a mechanic and so did all the work himself.


Thats fine,as long as the drive HAS been fettled.It is also a good sign if the owner has had the boat a long time.Preferably years.
My first question to vendor whenever considering aquiring a boat/car/space shuttle or new wife is ...........How long have you had the item in question,any short term ownership normally means somebody is getting rid of trouble

 

[BSSOffice]

Thank you for that, we certainly have looked at a lot of boats!
Funnily enough, the Seamaster was actually one of the first ones we looked at but we kept on hunting before realising that it was actually the best of the bunch for our needs (and budget)

You may find this link useful http://www.seamasterclub.co.uk/. The technical advice on the page comes from a Seamaster owner and BSS examiner. He could be someone to talk to, he may even know the boat you have in mind.

Rob