First night passage...

[slawosz]

What is TSS system? By outside of wind farms, could you describe which ones?

My idea is to sail outside Shipwash and then passing Storm, Long Sand Head (those two will be decision point) and then along Kentish Knock. This is well described route in 'Crossing the Thames Estuary'.

 

[RupertW]

So you are going to leave at 20-00 hours after a day when you probably will not have any kip ( unless a shift worker or similar used to day time sleeping) then you will sail through the night when you may not get any sleep if your crew is as inexperienced as you then be awake through to 15-00 hours the next day
You could be without sleep for over 30 hours.
Perhaps leaving at say 09-00 then have a days sail when you are fully awake. .75 miles with a SW wind you might be lucky to make 4 kts in a 24 ft boat.
However, a 20 hour trip would get you at ramsgate at 05-00 just as it starts to get light. By that time you will be well knackered. I find that the wind always seems to bend a bit south as I approach N Foreland, requiring a bit of tacking.
When the tide turns you might find yourself well to the east if you go outside the Kentish knock in rougher water & no chance of tacking back towards land

We used to always aim to leave in the evening for a night sail unless it was a long passage. It was much more restful having a lazy afternoon cooking a hot evening meal ready for reheating later - I snooze easily after lunch and a deep sleep not vital. Then to sea, sails up and sailing well in full daylight, hot meal heated up snd eaten in the dark, timed ideally an hour or two of the simplest navigation, and night watches after that with skipper when off watch ready to pop head up at any moment. Then a pre-Dawn approach with lights still visible and an early morning daylight arrival.

Chomps up the miles, short kip after breakfast and a new harbour to explore without wasting precious holiday time sailing in the day.

 

[Adios]

What is TSS system? By outside of wind farms, could you describe which ones?

My idea is to sail outside Shipwash and then passing Storm, Long Sand Head (those two will be decision point) and then along Kentish Knock. This is well described route in 'Crossing the Thames Estuary'.

Traffic Separation Scheme. the bits with arrows between the mauve borders. https://www.eastern-ifca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/ESFJC1610A-Edition-1.pdf Ideally keep out of those bits or cross at right angles but its not so rigid for a yacht in that area as it is crossing the lanes in the English Channel. They are more like short entry points to the Sunk area, where ships are turning and crossing each others paths. Ships will have an alert watch on there if nowhere else so its not that risky to be there IMO but better in daylight with good visibility for them to see you.

The wind farms are on here http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/passage_planning_guide2013.pdf If the wind allows you to point where you like you can pass Long Sand Head and can stay just to the east of the London Array and the Knock. However if you need to tack, rather than going into the shipping lanes you can sail within the London Array as noted here going through Knock Deep https://eastcoastpilot.com/LA_Ops&Maintenance_2013.pdf which would be less challenging during the day so another reason to do the first bit at night.

Then keep to the west of Thanet Wind Farm, turn right and you're in Ramsgate. Its not that much of a challenge IMO

 

[tillergirl]

There are 3 short TSS in the approaches to the Sunk Gyro but you can avoid the actual TSSs. Crossing the Sunk can be a little confusing for understanding which way the ships might be going.

Dare I ask what you objective is: Just for night passage experience and/or incorporating a trip to Lowestoft and Ramsgit?

Oh a PS back to an earlier point: leaving the Blackwater at night will be fine - all lit these days (wasn't always).

 

[Daydream believer]

The route you describe takes across the Sunk precautionary area & down the lane running along the east of the Kentish knock
I would go down the coast to Washington & cross the Felixtowe shipping channel there. Run down the Cork Hole to the end of the Gunfleet sand then down the east swin to Barrow No 2. staying in the Swin will avoid some ships in the first part of black Deep. Then cross the Sunk sand to just n of BD No 5 go down a bit of the Black Deep heading for the top of the Fishermans Gat, Cutting the corner to save time.watch the depth & just sail round on the 5 metre line. Cross the Gat to the spit at the SE end( no need to go as far north as the outer fisherman you can start heading S) & head for N fore land via e margate buoy

That way you do not get caught N E of N foreland in a SW wind out to sea in rougher water & you have options when in the E swin to head for Brightlingsea or Burnham.
Be aware that you can get a viscous 1 metre chop in that area & it can be quite rough just to the SE of the Longsand Head Buoy. That is the point where I normally start to get sea sick when heading for Ostend!!

 

[johnalison]

Most passages in our waters are dictated by the tides, so that whatever one’s preferences may be for setting out/arriving in the dark, in the end it will be determined by the tides. There is a special satisfaction to be had from arriving at a strange port in the dark, but this is probably not a good idea for a first-timer. The first new port I visited in the dark was Brighton, at 2am with a rising southerly F6. This was quite exciting, and we slept well once tied up. Some ports, such as Cherbourg, can be complicated and the correct lights hard to pick out. Even the Walton Backwaters I find less than easy, with its mixture of lit and unlit buoys, even though it is my home water.

 

[Dan Tribe]

Much good advice and reminiscences in this thread.
It reminds me how much easier and more fun night navigation is now with GPS and chart plotters.
No more trying to get a fix with a handbearing compass, identifying lights, dripping oilskins on to soggy charts, trying to remember whether to add / subtract variation. etc. Then the feeling that, perhaps you've made an error and checking it all again.

 

[BoyBlue49]

It is as well to impress on those waiting at home that there are no phone radio masts sticking up out at sea.
Once out of mobile phone coverage they will not be able to contact you or you them.
A few years ago, in the middle of Biscay, a crew member with phone in hand, asked me why he couldn't contact his wife in Durham.

 

[slawosz]

There are 3 short TSS in the approaches to the Sunk Gyro but you can avoid the actual TSSs. Crossing the Sunk can be a little confusing for understanding which way the ships might be going.

Dare I ask what you objective is: Just for night passage experience and/or incorporating a trip to Lowestoft and Ramsgit?

Its for both - night passage and longest trip I can get close to Blackwaters. I am happy for other suggestions. I will review other suggestions with map in some time. Not to

Regarding route, second half is K5 to K1 in your book, so I believe it's not very complicated. I am planning to do calculations myself and use book as reference.

That way you do not get caught N E of N foreland in a SW wind out to sea in rougher water & you have options when in the E swin to head for Brightlingsea or Burnham.
Be aware that you can get a viscous 1 metre chop in that area & it can be quite rough just to the SE of the Longsand Head Buoy. That is the point where I normally start to get sea sick when heading for Ostend!!

This is bit unknown, I have never been in real chop tidal chop. From past experience, I don't think I could get really badly sea sick. My Achilles 24 is rather praised for handling in rough water.
Also, I will listen to the weather forecast - and this is another 'test' - if I can't get hold for forecast midway - I might retire.

 

[slawosz]

It is as well to impress on those waiting at home that there are no phone radio masts sticking up out at sea.
Once out of mobile phone coverage they will not be able to contact you or you them.
A few years ago, in the middle of Biscay, a crew member with phone in hand, asked me why he couldn't contact his wife in Durham.

Thats why I am considering some satellite subscription. It looks quite managable: Garmin inReach Subscription Plans

 

[Gary Fox]

Its for both - night passage and longest trip I can get close to Blackwaters. I am happy for other suggestions. I will review other suggestions with map in some time. Not to

Regarding route, second half is K5 to K1 in your book, so I believe it's not very complicated. I am planning to do calculations myself and use book as reference.



This is bit unknown, I have never been in real chop tidal chop. From past experience, I don't think I could get really badly sea sick. My Achilles 24 is rather praised for handling in rough water.
Also, I will listen to the weather forecast - and this is another 'test' - if I can't get hold for forecast midway - I might retire.

You should, midway, be able to receive the CG Inshore Waters forecasts on VHF (look in your Almanac for times and details), and the Shipping Forecasts on BBC Radio 4 ( LW 198 Khz) if the timing works out.
London VTS has blanket VHF coverage of the estuary, in the almanac again, or the excellent PLA website.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A night passage can be one of the most wonderful and satisfying experiences to be had on a boat and you have been given a lot of valuable information in the previous posts.
I would just like to add a few observations of my own....

Do not enter a port at night, unless you absolutely know it like the back of your hand. Making out the nav aids against the light clutter of a town can be extremely difficult and after awhile you may well discover that the starboard buoy you've been diligently heading for is a pedestrian crossing in front of the gas station. Close in, do not rely blindly on your plotter; Navionics & Co, as we found out, do not, or cannot always keep up with the rapidly changing conditions in areas with a soft sea bed. We had a nasty surprise when entering the Waddenzee between Terschelling and Vlieland at night; we ended up carefully feeling our way through the gatt, shining a light on each buoy as it came up to identify it by it's number, which for some strange reason is always on the other side.

I'm really not sure about the 'do not enter a port at night unless you know it really well...' suggestion. Firstly, ports look different and distances look different at night and no matter how well you know a port, it will look different at night. Secondly, lots of small ports and refugees are really easy to enter at night. It's places like Cowes or Plymouth etc where the lights are lost in the huge swathe of lighting behind that makes life challenging sometimes. Yet even those places aren't that difficult with a bit of prior preparation and planning. Thirdly, if you do find yourself entering a post at night don't be afraid to reverse your course and go back and start again. Only a few years ago we were entering L'Aberwrach late at night/small hours after a long passage when I realised I wasn't totally confident as to where we were and there were breakers ahead. So we turned 180 and went back out to Libenter buoy and started again. (I discovered that the tide was unusually strong and had set us to port of track a lot further than I'd allowed for. While I was desperately trying to identify the leading lights ahead, we were swept way off track and were heading into danger.) You really haven't got time to start putting fixes on a chart and just trusting the plotter in some of these situations is foolish to the extreme. Have a plan, draw a little sketch and execute it. Cross checking the depths expected with that the echo sounder is actually reading is a confidence booster too.,

Just my two penny worth.

 

[Slowboat35]

Note to the OP.

With the greatest respect, after re-reading your posts - and especially learning that you've only just bought colregs cards and another that shows you don't know that TSS is, plus numerous pointers in other posts - I strongly suggest you spend a great deal more time learning navigation and seamanship in coastal waters and undertaking some training courses before embarking on a trip of this magnitude for which I am quite certain you are nowhere near ready for.
The impression given by your posts is of someone with scant experience in even coastal navigation by daylight, proposing this lengthy offshore voyage sounds highly questionable to me. I don't mean to sound critical or spoilsport, this is not a small undertaking and for your safety I really wonder whether you are up to it.

Perhaps others will comment upon reviewing the OP's posts and questions.

 

[tillergirl]

I am inclined to agree with Slowboat35 hence asking your objectives. On a fabulous moonlight summer's balmy evening with a moderate NE, it will be a fabulous passage. On a dark night with unsettled conditions and adverse/changing/gusting winds - ugh. I would suggest it would be much more fun (I assume we all get out there for fun) to do it first in daylight. Expressing some concerns (albeit limited concerns) about leaving the River Blackwater in the dark just suggests it would be better to try some shorter passages and build your experieince and knowledge. Lowestoft to Ramsgit is @ 72nm and at 4 kts average is a 18 hour sail (without help of the tide - a lot of the benefit would by negated by the length of the passage). I admit I am now old and decrepit but I just think this 'experience' is a little higher up on your list than it ought to be.

I regret being a bit negative and if you disagree I would be happy to help with the tides.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Note to the OP.

With the greatest respect, after re-reading your posts - and especially learning that you've only just bought colregs cards and another that shows you don't know that TSS is, plus numerous pointers in other posts - I strongly suggest you spend a great deal more time learning navigation and seamanship in coastal waters and undertaking some training courses before embarking on a trip of this magnitude for which I am quite certain you are nowhere near ready for.
The impression given by your posts is of someone with scant experience in even coastal navigation by daylight, proposing this lengthy offshore voyage sounds highly questionable to me. I don't mean to sound critical or spoilsport, this is not a small undertaking and for your safety I really wonder whether you are up to it.

Perhaps others will comment upon reviewing the OP's posts and questions.

Perhaps I hadn’t appreciated what knowledge or experience the OP was starting from? I echo this eho have said to choose a nice easy passage to start with. Everything is strange at night.

A common experience that I share with other instructors is that after a weeks CC or DS course, the students often cite the night passage(s) as one of their favourite bits of the week.

 

[johnalison]

I'm really not sure about the 'do not enter a port at night unless you know it really well...' suggestion. Firstly, ports look different and distances look different at night and no matter how well you know a port, it will look different at night. Secondly, lots of small ports and refugees are really easy to enter at night. It's places like Cowes or Plymouth etc where the lights are lost in the huge swathe of lighting behind that makes life challenging sometimes. Yet even those places aren't that difficult with a bit of prior preparation and planning. Thirdly, if you do find yourself entering a post at night don't be afraid to reverse your course and go back and start again. Only a few years ago we were entering L'Aberwrach late at night/small hours after a long passage when I realised I wasn't totally confident as to where we were and there were breakers ahead. So we turned 180 and went back out to Libenter buoy and started again. (I discovered that the tide was unusually strong and had set us to port of track a lot further than I'd allowed for. While I was desperately trying to identify the leading lights ahead, we were swept way off track and were heading into danger.) You really haven't got time to start putting fixes on a chart and just trusting the plotter in some of these situations is foolish to the extreme. Have a plan, draw a little sketch and execute it. Cross checking the depths expected with that the echo sounder is actually reading is a confidence booster too.,

Just my two penny worth.

I think that this was a masterclass in how to contradict yourself in one paragraph. "Entering a port at night is no harder than in daytime, and this is how I scared myself witless while trying to do it".

My experience is that people vary greatly in their ability to transfer information from a chart or plotter into the real world around them Those without this facility can manage, but have to deal with things very methodically, and always proceed on the basis of what they know to be true, which is how navigation should be done anyway.

 

[Adios]

Perhaps others will comment upon reviewing the OP's posts and questions.

it crossed my mind as well but he has to learn sometime and he's here to learn. If all of his sailing has been local east coat there's no TSS to need to know about. But @slawosz is here planning a trip months in advance. That suggests someone who is doing their homework diligently not a captain calamity in the making The outside route trip he's proposing isn't a major navigation challenge its simply a bit longer. Leaving at 8pm it will be a good 8 to 10 hours of simple sea before he gets to the Sunk TSS which will be daylight in summer. Solid boat hopefully in good order, (clean the spark plug before you leave and make sure your petrol is fresh). Main thing is picking a day with the right weather.

When I started out I was quite ambitious for my level of knowledge and size of boat and that encouraged me no end in learning all about it. I picked up arm fulls of used PBOs and Yachting Monthly mags from chandlers (donations to RNLI sort of deal) and devoured them over some summers spent afloat slowly crawling every ditch between the Deben and London. Practical Boat Owner magazine Nov 04 - Summer 19 | eBay you can always flog them again when you're done. I noticed after 10 years worth the topics start repeating as there aren't endless things to learn. I bet its quicker to learn from mags than youtube videos, the ones i've seen have so much guff to wade through before they get to the point. It might be an idea to go back some years to the vintage of your boat especially if you only have minimal money for electronic luxury items which are assumed as standard kit now but as you'd see they are really non-essential. I say carry on doing your homework and go for it ?

 

[Adios]

I'm really not sure about the 'do not enter a port at night unless you know it really well...' suggestion. Firstly, ports look different and distances look different at night and no matter how well you know a port, it will look different at night. Secondly, lots of small ports and refugees are really easy to enter at night. It's places like Cowes or Plymouth etc where the lights are lost in the huge swathe of lighting behind that makes life challenging sometimes. Yet even those places aren't that difficult with a bit of prior preparation and planning.

I was thinking the same especially about Ramsgate. Its well lit without much background clutter. I found Felixstowe a nightmare for a tired sailor, just about impossible to keep the buoys in sight once I turned north around Landguard and had the port lights ahead. No amount of being there before helped at that point. These days with plotters I guess everyone just follows that.

 

[Adios]

I assume we all get out there for fun

and adventure! which requires a good dollop of challenge.

 

[Tomahawk]

Actually Ramsgate (not ramsgit) is quite easy at night..
Approaching from the north the lighthouse will be clearly visible. As will the street lights in Margate. They quite literally stop to the left because of the shape of N Foreland. Aim to be about a mile off shore... then as you pass the headland the lights stop to the right.

You get the lights of Broadstairs as a bunch then a gap then Ramsgate streeet lights will appear. About a mile off shore ahead of you there are two pairs of latleral marks for the deep water chanel into the port. They will look a bit confusing seen from right angles to the channel as you will see red green red green in a line as opposed to reds on one side and greens on the other.

Get closer to the shore... (It is gently shallowing) to about 300 yards away and look for a South Cardinal, Aim for it and turn sharp right as pass.. The entrance is decently wide but the tide does set very hard across the entrance so it will sweep you south (assuming you got the todes right) .. There is ample room to drop sails in the outer harbour.

DO NOT FORGET TO CALL PORT CONTROL ON CH14.

This is really important. There is not much commercial shipping these days, but for a big ship, the channel is very constrained. Unlike Dover where they can slam on the brakes, ships have no option but to keep on at full speed once they are in the deep water channel.

The Royal Temple is at the top of Westcliffe.. It used to be very welcoming to visitors in oilies. ut thwt was a long time ago.