First boat - what do I need to think about?

If you're thinking SoF, enquire carefully about mooring (costs and availability) before committing yourself.

Generally, in French Med marinas you buy a leasehold berth at a not inconsiderable sum (it can be as much or more than the price of the boat), for a period that might be relatively short. You then also pay annual service charges. As almost all mooring is end on, the boat's beam becomes an important factor - marina space is sold by length and beam, with beam being the limiting factor. Once beam goes beyond about 3.8 to 4 metres, prices race upwards in an astonishing manner - it's not a linear progression. To complicate things some marinas sell by a beam figure which includes fenders (one side only - on the other side you rely on your neighbour's) so a 3.5m berth will actually be 3.7m to allow for 'defences', while others expect you buy wide enough for your beam plus fenders, so a 3.5m berth will take a 3.3m beam, plus fenders. One more problem - generally the marinas don't sell berths, but brokers do, and there can be several brokers operating with the big marinas, so one may tell you nothing is available, while others can have some 'stock'.

Inwards Marine is a good place to start looking. Many moorings are also advertised through on-line small ads - Google will uncover them - the usual French word for a mooring is an 'anneau', deriving from the mooring rings you tie up to.

There are some municipal marinas where you rent a berth, as in the UK, but these are few and waiting lists pretty intimidating, especially if you didn't go to school with the mayor or marry his sister.
 
As I understand it, Many French boats are registered in Belgium because of simpler requirements for the boat. I assume there are ways round the residency requirements which is why I suggested specialist advice.

The level of check on residency could also be an issue. Many boats are on the SSR even though the owners do not strictly qualify. Provided the computer "sees" a UK resident and the applicant makes the declaration there does not seem to be any check!
 
First boat - what do I need to think about?

Blue skies
Warm breezes
Beautiful sunrises/sunsets
Gin & Tonic in the cockpit
Pleasant company
Gentle rocking of the boat lulling you to sleep

They're what I keep THINKING about... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
The scheme you're thinking about is more a VAT doge for new boats. Involves some sort of leasing. Bizarely enough, it also works the other way round. VAT-wise it's cheaper for Belgians to register a new boat in France for some years.

For private individuals the residency requirements are quite strict.
 
I'm one for a start. I've wanted a boat for years but had a reluctant HWMBO despite him being a far more experienced sailor, and him getting me into sailing in the first place. So in the end I decided I wouldn't "obey" any longer and bought one. He's sharing marina costs but I have to pay for everything else boat-related. He's still cross about my disobedience and waywardness. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
You can sail - but can SWMBO? if she can't then I suggest you might arrange things so that she has the idea that she wants to go on a sailing course.
She will then know what boat she will arrange for you to want to buy.
Also teaching SWMBO to sail could be a little like teaching SWMBO to drive, ie best left to someone else.
 
Good thought. My wife is already doing a dayskipper course, but this boat is for me. I may take her out on it once or twice - or not - but she wants me to buy a boat for myself.

The next boat will be for "us". And we charter every year, so she will get lots of practice before we get "our" boat.
 
No, I was not thinking about that at all.

The boat in the S of F will need to be VAT paid. The only issue is where to register it as it has to have papers. If the OP was resident in UK it could be on the SSR or Part 1. If the OP meets the criteria for Swiss registration then he could do that, but I understand it is cumbersome and expensive (anecdotal). I have come across several Swiss registered boats in the Med so obviously possible. What is not legally possible is keeping a boat in France permanently without paying VAT, irrespective of where it is registered.

There is no direct connection between registration and VAT. If a boat is "put into service" in France it pays VAT in France, even if it is registered in Belgium. The same would be true if I bought a new boat from a French dealer - I would pay VAT in France. In fact I bought my boat from a Greek dealer so paid VAT in Greece, but the boat is on the SSR, having been taken off the Greek register before I paid the tax. VAT is not "attached" to the boat, only the transaction or "chargeable event".

If you have patience there is a long running thread (3 months now) on the MoBo forum on the ins and outs of VAT.
 
I will be buying a second hand, probably EU registered boat (at least that is my assumption) so it should be VAT paid already. And as I understand it, if the sale is in EU of a vat-paid boat, I won't have to pay VAT again.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you are a Swiss resident you should be able to register it in Switzerland, irrespective of where you keep it.
No country should allow its flag to be used by non residents or foreign nationals who are not residents, but some countries do. If Swiss registration is onerous or expensive there are ways round it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only Swiss nationals may register their boats as Swiss. It also means a full survey and paying for a Swiss surveyor's travel and expenses from Basel to wherever the boat is. It also means all other certification being Swiss (including the sailing licence - exams in the local language - with the qualifying sea miles under a Swiss-licensed skipper).

I'm wondering what the "ways round it" are? I am dual nationality but prefer not to use my Swiss one to register my boat (moored in the Italian Adriatic) in my country of residence.
 
OK here's my advice:

1) Dont mention VAT! Unless you are ready to read hundreds of often conflicting posts! - Just keep a copy of all invoices showing if possible that VAT has been paid! It doesn't matter if there needed or not, just keep them on the boat!

2) Undertake at least the day-skipper practical and theory courses, this will eneble you an automatic ICC.

3) Get insured and state clearly the waters you intend to sail in.

4) I would then recommend shorebased training to Yachtmaster - you can undertake Coastal and/or Yachtmaster practicals later if you like.

5) You must get the VHF/SRC!

6) Would recommend RYA basic safety course and if out to sea, the Sea Survival. Also CEVNI test useful!

7) Register the boat on the small ships register (Part Three) if UK flagged.

8) Unless new, ensure your boat is fully surveyed before purchasing. Check running hours and when engines last serviced etc.

9) Factor-in maintenance and berthing costs - transport to and from/ berthing/lifting/antifouling/anodes.

10) If mobo - ensure you fully establish/factor-in cost of fuel. My boat is not bad at 1.5 - 2MPG but with larger boats we are talking GPM!

11) When you buy your boat ensure you get at couple of days training at sea from/with the seller!

12) Check the boats inventory - you may need to buy lots of extra's if not with the boat: lifejackets /tender /outboard /flares /HH Radio /liferaft /fenders /warps /etc..

12) Unless SWMBO is expereinced: make sure her first voyage is 'F0' on a hot summers day - tell her how beautiful she looks with the wind in her hair (dont tell her there isnt any - wind that is or that you have not left the marina yet).

Best of luck!
 
You will not have to pay VAT, but the person you sell it to subsequently would in theory, because you are effectively exporting it from the EU as you are non-EU resident. Sales between EU private residents are free of VAT.

I am sure there must be a way round it, but VAT laws and implementation are complex and riddled with anomolies and getting clear advice from the authorities seems almost impossible if the experiences of posters here on the subject are anything to go by.

I expect International Brokers and those operating in areas like the S of F will have come across similar situations and can provide advice.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you're thinking SoF, enquire carefully about mooring (costs and availability) before committing yourself.

Generally, in French Med marinas you buy a leasehold berth at a not inconsiderable sum (it can be as much or more than the price of the boat),


[/ QUOTE ]

No. Most people just rent a berth. Only the seriously rich buy a berth. And that is in places like Antibes, St Tropez etc. I have not seen that kind of thing down here (South West).

At some of the prices I have seen for berths for sale, you could pay the daily visitors rate at St Tropez for the duration of the leasehold!

[ QUOTE ]

As almost all mooring is end on, the boat's beam becomes an important factor - marina space is sold by length and beam, with beam being the limiting factor. Once beam goes beyond about 3.8 to 4 metres, prices race upwards in an astonishing manner - it's not a linear progression.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have not come accross a marina which asked about the beam for a mono-hull. Catamarans pay more (typical x1.5 or x2).

[ QUOTE ]

There are some municipal marinas where you rent a berth, as in the UK, but these are few and waiting lists pretty intimidating, especially if you didn't go to school with the mayor or marry his sister.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are loads of them. But many have waiting lists and there seems to be very little movement at the moment.

However I found two different locations for my boat straight off by asking around. In my case I chose Port Leucate (ca 3500 euros/year for 16m length). They did have more space available at the time I reserved mine. Also they have plans for a load more berths some time soon.

Also Sete had some space due to become available about now - they offered to let me tie up to a visitor berth before the permanent one was available. They are also building a whole new marina area.

Port Napoleon (privately run) often has space available (but they are very expensive - ca 7500 euros for 16m). They don't run a waiting list so you have to ask (and pay) at the right time. They did have space when I asked in November.

You might try Port St Louis just next door which is municipal and probably half the price.

It is difficult to find a berth - but not impossible. And almost anywhere is cheaper than the Solent!
 
Thanks for the info on Swiss registration. Thoiught it would be difficult.

Was not suggesting ways of getting round the Swiss requirements, but of avoiding them by registering elsewhere. there are several options such as Gibraltar, Cayman Islands, Channel Islands etc, but they are not so "easy" as being in a position to register on the SSR in UK if one qualifies.
 
[ QUOTE ]
You will not have to pay VAT, but the person you sell it to subsequently would in theory, because you are effectively exporting it from the EU as you are non-EU resident.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except I won't be exporting it. I'll be keeping it in the EU.
 
wn51 maybe right if you want to be west of Marseilles, but east of Marseilles (actually the furthest west I looked was Port Cogolin) the story is the one I've given. I spent the best part of week visiting the marinas down there, and getting the same sort of story everywhere.
 
There seems to be some confusion on the Belgium Reg. Issue
pleanty of French Nationals use it. For info. www.pavillion-belge.com I assume you speak french as it is one of the swiss tongues. Fees are something like €350. One time payment.
A
Possibly people are confusing the issue because CH is not in the EU, not a prob if the boat is not based there. With a name like Bruce, I assume you are not Swiss born........
A
 
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