flaming
Well-Known Member
Yes, although apparently the alternative is "another one bites the dust", which is however considered bad taste for someone performing CPR....
First aid
- Thread starter flaming
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Yes, although apparently the alternative is "another one bites the dust", which is however considered bad taste for someone performing CPR....
Angele
Well-Known Member
Lakesailor's statistics - particularly the very low rates of survival of patients in receipt of CPR - rather back up what my First Aid instructor told us. He (slightly flippantly) said that the main benefit of giving CPR is that the rescuers would likely feel better that they had done all they could, but the patient does not survive, than the guilt they would carry if they sat back and did nothing.
He also observed that:
All rather depressing thoughts!
Edit: TK got there before me!
He also observed that:
- unless the victim had at least a couple of fractured ribs, you hadn't done it hard enough and
- keeping up the chest compression for more than 10-20 minutes if all you have is a small crew is very difficult. You had better hope that help (in the form of the emergency services) is close at hand.
All rather depressing thoughts!
Edit: TK got there before me!
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AliM
Well-Known Member
Lakesailor - that's interesting reading. Basically your chances of survival if your heart has stopped increase by only a very, very small amount if someone gives you CPR.
Now, suppose you were in a situation when someone close to you collapsed clutching his/her heart. Obviously, you send out a Mayday, phone 999, or whatever, but you know they have little chance of making it (if their heart has stopped). You have to do something though, so you do whatever you dimly remember from your First Aid course N years ago, and then when the helicopter/lifeboat/ambulance arrives, you at least feel that you've done your best.
I wonder who has actually been in that situation, and did doing something (or being unable to) affect them afterwards - regardless of the effect on the patient!
Now, suppose you were in a situation when someone close to you collapsed clutching his/her heart. Obviously, you send out a Mayday, phone 999, or whatever, but you know they have little chance of making it (if their heart has stopped). You have to do something though, so you do whatever you dimly remember from your First Aid course N years ago, and then when the helicopter/lifeboat/ambulance arrives, you at least feel that you've done your best.
I wonder who has actually been in that situation, and did doing something (or being unable to) affect them afterwards - regardless of the effect on the patient!
DJE
Well-Known Member
"Stayin Alive" by the Bee Gees has also been recomended.
Never had to do any first aid at sea but did have to adminster CPR ashore once. Very hard work but a real body feels remarkably similar to the dummy.
The casualty didn't make it. I keep my first aid certificate up to date.
fisherman
Well-Known Member
lost me there
Victoria Sponge
Well-Known Member
I have an up to date St John's one. Yes, I know they change things, but that's not why you need to keep up to date, it's more about refreshing your memory about what to do.
Victoria Sponge
Well-Known Member
I have an up to date St John's one. Yes, I know they change things, but that's not the only reason to keep up to date, it's more about refreshing your memory about what to do.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
Is there an automatic defibrillator suitable for carrying on a yacht? I do recall our first aid course suggesting this had a MUCH better chance of succeeding than CPR did.
Given that my course was a work one for people potentially days away from help, we were told to continue CPR until exhaustion set in or a doctor on the radio told you to stop. The only exception was traumatic injury incompatible with life.
However, it is certainly true that CPR has a low chance of success for the average population; it may be rather higher where I work, where you have to have a fairly serious medical before going South, and where the average age is lowish. But the average sailor faced with a person with a stopped heart had better be thinking along the lines of "I'll give them the best chance I can, but the odds aren't good". And in a two-up situation, continuous CPR probably isn't going to be feasible.
Given that my course was a work one for people potentially days away from help, we were told to continue CPR until exhaustion set in or a doctor on the radio told you to stop. The only exception was traumatic injury incompatible with life.
However, it is certainly true that CPR has a low chance of success for the average population; it may be rather higher where I work, where you have to have a fairly serious medical before going South, and where the average age is lowish. But the average sailor faced with a person with a stopped heart had better be thinking along the lines of "I'll give them the best chance I can, but the odds aren't good". And in a two-up situation, continuous CPR probably isn't going to be feasible.
pteron
Well-Known Member
The best CPR resource....
http://www.supersexycpr.com/cpr.html
If all courses were taught like this there'd be far more people (men!) with First Aid certs...
http://www.supersexycpr.com/cpr.html
If all courses were taught like this there'd be far more people (men!) with First Aid certs...
Seajet
...
If I had just been listening to Led Zep's 'Rock And Roll' the casualty and I might both be in trouble !
The only serious casualties I've dealt with were a poor chap who'd been floating for 6 months ( so CPR seemed unlikely to help ) and a swimmer drowning off a beach, who just needed flotation in the form of a tractor inner tube and a tow to shore - I always thought the sight of my girlfriend losing her bikini top in the surf was what really brought him round.
A while ago now, I was sailing cross Channel between the Casquets and Guernsey in a breeze, when my chum opened a 'self heating meal' ( remember those ?! Tiny portions and expensive, but would still be handy today, I think Elf N' Safety got them ! ) - John managed to slice his finger quite badly on the tin lid, there was blood all over the cockpit.
It was before most small boats carried VHF, and though it was no emergency, I suddenly felt VERY alone looking at the big swell and him bandaging the flow, one of the few mental notes I've taken and followed was 'Do A First Aid Course' !...
The only serious casualties I've dealt with were a poor chap who'd been floating for 6 months ( so CPR seemed unlikely to help ) and a swimmer drowning off a beach, who just needed flotation in the form of a tractor inner tube and a tow to shore - I always thought the sight of my girlfriend losing her bikini top in the surf was what really brought him round.
A while ago now, I was sailing cross Channel between the Casquets and Guernsey in a breeze, when my chum opened a 'self heating meal' ( remember those ?! Tiny portions and expensive, but would still be handy today, I think Elf N' Safety got them ! ) - John managed to slice his finger quite badly on the tin lid, there was blood all over the cockpit.
It was before most small boats carried VHF, and though it was no emergency, I suddenly felt VERY alone looking at the big swell and him bandaging the flow, one of the few mental notes I've taken and followed was 'Do A First Aid Course' !...
Rigger Mortice
N/A
I'm not sure that it would be much use. I may well be wrong, but my understanding is that a defib will simply get the ticker working again. If the underlying cause of it stopping/going into fibrillation is still there then it will be a short lived (literally) success. Without the approriate intervention then the difib will only buy you a very short time.
By coincidence, we have a community presentation this evening on a proposal to buy a defibrillator for the village. I'll see if I can find out.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I saw figures suggesting that your chances of surviving if you have CPR inside a hospital is about 5% and your chances outside are about 1%.
Doghousekeeper
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be too concerned about the "one year" bit.
Anyone can use an AED, but it is preferable that people receive training first.
lancelot
Well-Known Member
First Aid
European Resuscitation Council Guidelines 2010 now advise 100 to 120 per min. Slightly faster now.
I can't imagine anyone complaining if only 100 per min. though.
All the updates can be read on their site.
Fair winds
Lancelot
European Resuscitation Council Guidelines 2010 now advise 100 to 120 per min. Slightly faster now.
I can't imagine anyone complaining if only 100 per min. though.
All the updates can be read on their site.
Fair winds
Lancelot
lancelot
Well-Known Member
European Resuscitation Council guidelines 2010 now advise 100 to 120 per min.
You can get all their updates on their site.
Fair winds
Lancelot
tudorsailor
Well-Known Member
What injuries do we need to prepare
Although the thread has been slanted towards resuscitating someone in cardiac arrest, I bet this is a rare occurance
An interesting poll would be to identify the incidence of various injuries. I would guess finger injuries are common. Anyone seen ring avulsion injuries? Head injuries are probably common too from the boom. I have treated a minor spinal injury following a fall. Have many people seen a fracture? What about cuts that are more than minor? With an ageing population of sailors, what about urinary retention???
Once we know what is common, we can prepare for them
TudorSailor
Although the thread has been slanted towards resuscitating someone in cardiac arrest, I bet this is a rare occurance
An interesting poll would be to identify the incidence of various injuries. I would guess finger injuries are common. Anyone seen ring avulsion injuries? Head injuries are probably common too from the boom. I have treated a minor spinal injury following a fall. Have many people seen a fracture? What about cuts that are more than minor? With an ageing population of sailors, what about urinary retention???
Once we know what is common, we can prepare for them
TudorSailor
Sniper
Well-Known Member
That is a possibility of course, but actually early defibrillation may well result in a return of spontaneous circulation regardless of the underlying pathology. Rearrest may occur, but it is not inevitable. I've seen a lot of people who have survived to discharge from hospital after defibrillation. You're quite right, of course, that the underlying problem still needs urgent attention but a defibrillator can definitely save a life.
Given the cost of a basic defibrillator set against the cost of other marine equipment, there is a good case for considering carrying one on board.
CPR out of hospital is important, but it is only one part of the survival chain and it is unlikely to be succesful without defibrillation and/or treatment of reversible causes of the arrest.
fisherman
Well-Known Member
My mate, two weeks after the first first aid course, went to tend a cyclist after a hit and run, cyclist was bleeding awful, looked up and said, 'I'm haemophilic'. All he could do was as taught, by the book, (direct pressure, levitate the affected area) and it more or less worked. I give him full marks for composure.
bammylovechops
Well-Known Member
For those with iPhone/iPad try "iResus"
Handy to have with you, wether for you at sea or at home, you never know!!!
Also handy as a learning device during those "no jobs to do" moments.
Handy to have with you, wether for you at sea or at home, you never know!!!
Also handy as a learning device during those "no jobs to do" moments.
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Babylon
Well-Known Member
First Aider's Shock & Guilt
I was recently in a head-on collision, where the driver of the other car died. My own car was on the back of a recovery vehicle which had already stopped in a narrow village street as the old woman driving a small hatchback crashed into us at about 30mph. Both of us in the front of the cab knew she had suffered some kind of medical event before the impact, as we could see she had no awareness whatsover of our presence or took any kind of braking or evasive action, but just carried on at the same speed into our front.
Immediately after the impact, I jumped out the cab, then a young man who had been smoking outside an adjacent pub came over and said he was a first aider - at which point I remembered I was also one, but let him take the lead as he said he had just done a refresher course.
The old woman was just about still alive. She hadn't been wearing a seatbelt and had vomited (I removed her false teeth), but she was still alive and vaguely responsive. The other guy was reassuring her and checking for stimulae while I did a basic check for injuries with her still sat in her seat (she probably had some internal trauma from the impact but which I couldn't easily identify). As she seemed to be fading, we took the decision to transfer her from the car to the pavement so we could at least carry out CPR. At this point a local GP came out of the Co-Op and started CPR, but didn't continue for long as it was pretty obvious that the old woman had died.
It took a while for the police and ambulance to arrive, then an interminable time for the accident investigators to do their thing. The police interviewed the driver of the recovery vehicle, the guy who had led the first aid, and the local GP, but seemed curiously disinterested in me. The thing that struck me was the shock that the young first aider was in, and the guilt that he kept expressing. He was a little pissed (four pints I recall) and kept going on about the fact that he didn't save the old woman's life - as if he believed that was his responsibility.
I wasn't in shock at the time, nor was I later. It was clear to me that the old woman had had a heart-attack or stroke or some kind of significant medical event long before she had even struck us. She was very old. It was perhaps providence that we were there, blocking her path to the kids mucking about on their bicycles further up the road. But none of this alleviated the shock the young first aider was in.
Three days later, trying to get my own car recovered off the back of the original recovery vehicle still in the police yard, so I could get it repaired, I had to chase all the up the line of police command to inspector level. Eventually the inspector called me back to say the coroner had now determined that the old woman had died of natural causes (ie before the impact), and my car would be released forthwith. Later the garage ordered the wrong part, and I was forced to borrow my soon-to-be-ex-wife's car, but that's another story...
I was recently in a head-on collision, where the driver of the other car died. My own car was on the back of a recovery vehicle which had already stopped in a narrow village street as the old woman driving a small hatchback crashed into us at about 30mph. Both of us in the front of the cab knew she had suffered some kind of medical event before the impact, as we could see she had no awareness whatsover of our presence or took any kind of braking or evasive action, but just carried on at the same speed into our front.
Immediately after the impact, I jumped out the cab, then a young man who had been smoking outside an adjacent pub came over and said he was a first aider - at which point I remembered I was also one, but let him take the lead as he said he had just done a refresher course.
The old woman was just about still alive. She hadn't been wearing a seatbelt and had vomited (I removed her false teeth), but she was still alive and vaguely responsive. The other guy was reassuring her and checking for stimulae while I did a basic check for injuries with her still sat in her seat (she probably had some internal trauma from the impact but which I couldn't easily identify). As she seemed to be fading, we took the decision to transfer her from the car to the pavement so we could at least carry out CPR. At this point a local GP came out of the Co-Op and started CPR, but didn't continue for long as it was pretty obvious that the old woman had died.
It took a while for the police and ambulance to arrive, then an interminable time for the accident investigators to do their thing. The police interviewed the driver of the recovery vehicle, the guy who had led the first aid, and the local GP, but seemed curiously disinterested in me. The thing that struck me was the shock that the young first aider was in, and the guilt that he kept expressing. He was a little pissed (four pints I recall) and kept going on about the fact that he didn't save the old woman's life - as if he believed that was his responsibility.
I wasn't in shock at the time, nor was I later. It was clear to me that the old woman had had a heart-attack or stroke or some kind of significant medical event long before she had even struck us. She was very old. It was perhaps providence that we were there, blocking her path to the kids mucking about on their bicycles further up the road. But none of this alleviated the shock the young first aider was in.
Three days later, trying to get my own car recovered off the back of the original recovery vehicle still in the police yard, so I could get it repaired, I had to chase all the up the line of police command to inspector level. Eventually the inspector called me back to say the coroner had now determined that the old woman had died of natural causes (ie before the impact), and my car would be released forthwith. Later the garage ordered the wrong part, and I was forced to borrow my soon-to-be-ex-wife's car, but that's another story...