First Aid Courses?

Ubergeekian

Ubergeekian

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Me: Castle Douglas, SW Scotland. Boats: Kirkcudbri
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It really is about time that I did a proper first aid course. I have seen reference to a "Ship Captain's Medical Course" but I can't find it on line. What I can find, at the Glasgow College of Nautical Studies is ...
Medical First Aid STCW95 Maritime Course (28 hours over 4 days)
Advanced First Aid Qualification for the Maritime Industry

Medical Care Onboard Ship STCW95 Maritime Course (35 hours over 5 days)
Recognition and management of a range of medical and trauma emergencies onboard ship.​
as well as a Basic First Aid course and an RYA one, both of which are one-day courses.

Any advice on choosing would be welcome. At the moment I am leaning towards the four day Medical First Aid one.
 
As a surgeon who has done far in excess of the basic first aid course, I would possibly suggest that first aid required for boating can best be learned from a good book and the internet. This is obviously assuming a moderate amount of common sense with no medical knowledge.
I would also add that basic first aid is common sense; sprains,cuts,bruises, upset stomachs,seasickness,dehydration . You could possibly see if a set of flow diagram flashcards exist to help with diagnosis. More advanced first aid and more complex problems; breaks, profuse bleeding,concussion,MI ( heart attack) need huge knowledge bases, far in excess of a first aid course to be delivered effectively. Medical histories, medications possible complications all of these are hugely important before beginning complex treatment. A treating first aiders/ doctors experience is also invaluable if you are suturing a wound etc
I genuinely believe that overly keen or ambitious first aiders can cause as many problems as they solve by not fully understanding what they are doing.
The best procedure for first aid is to firstly 1. remove the person or the danger wherever possible, 2. make the person comfortable 3. assess the patients condition and then if you are in any way unsure about the health or condition of the patient then find help either by getting ashore/calling mayday depending on the situation.
The only caveat to this would be if the patient has stopped breathing. In this case I would advise even the untrained to attempt chest compressions
 
I have to agree with nickfabbri, the one day course is as much as you will need.
Treat minor injuries- evacuate anything more serious, let someone qualified deal with it...
 
hehe, i kind of knew that this was the next question.
I guess that we all prepare for ocean passages in different ways. In any crew that is going to be two weeks from land, at least one should have medical training of sorts. However the things that you will remember rely mostly on common sense. If you are not practising a procedure on a regular basis then you will soon forget how to do it to an even average level. By example; we are required every year to do CPR training with our staff. Depsite the fact that our nurses have done this yearly for decades in some cases, they still forget all but the basics.
I think that if I were to look to all the advanced first aid kit that we keep on the premises I would suggest that most of it is medication for medical emergencies; anaphalactic reactions/ diabetic comas/ MI. However I would not suggest anyone but a trained doctor use these without proper and prior training. Even an epi-pen could kill someone with heart problems.
I guess to sumise; if it makes you are going to circumnavigate then you should do an advanced first aid course. You should also have ascertained a full medical history from the crew in writing before you set off. You should carry basic first aid, as well as as much medication and supplies as you know how to use and administer. We carry black silk sutures/antibiotics and local anaesthic syringes whenever we are more than one day from civilisation.
However for day sailing, coastal cruising offshore racing or basically anywhere within radio contact I believe that a one day RYA course will be more than enough. It will no doubt cost a fair bit less too.
 
I completely agree on the forgetting stuff - I rotate three first aid qualifications (FAW, RYA 1 day and expedition first aid) one each year to ensure I get a regular refresher, but there is still that element of panic when called to your first CPR casualty!

Can you recommend an advanced first aid course?
 
nickfabbri said:
However for day sailing, coastal cruising offshore racing or basically anywhere within radio contact I believe that a one day RYA course will be more than enough. It will no doubt cost a fair bit less too.
Click to expand...

Many thanks for your advice. It seems to me that all first aid is a matter of doing minimal harm while sustaining life before the professionals arrive, so the key matter is how long the wait is likely to be.

When I run residential activities for children I know that an ambulance can almost always be with us within minutes, so a basic policy of "keep air going in, don't let anything else leak out" seems about OK. On the west coast of Scotland the time lag is likely to be an hour if a helicopter is involved and could be several hours if a lifeboat does it, which suggests that a little more knowledge might be wise. Which is why I was looking at the slightly longer courses.

I may start with the RYA course and see how I feel after that.
 
Sorry I have no recommendations for advanced first aid. However all the reasons quoted above as well as your own statement I would steer clear of them .Even ones tailored to sailing will assume that you have more medical supplies than a basic first aid kit. If you don't have the equipment the knowlege is useless. In addition to this, emergency drugs are expensive and have short shelf lives ( 6 months), so you need to keep renewing them. In many cases you are also not allowed to purchase them without suitable accreditation or qualification
Anecdotally, there was a doctor on a flight a few years ago who performed an emergency crichothyroidectomy on a patient at 35,00ft ( its the one with the biro tube in the wind pipe). The patient lived, however the GMC tore him a new one when they got hold of him. In their opinion he had never performed it before and although he was doing what he thought was the best for the patient it was luck rather than judgement that saved the day, he shouyld have used more tried and tested methodology was their arguement.
 
nickfabbri said:
hehe, i kind of knew that this was the next question.
I guess that we all prepare for ocean passages in different ways. In any crew that is going to be two weeks from land, at least one should have medical training of sorts. However the things that you will remember rely mostly on common sense. If you are not practising a procedure on a regular basis then you will soon forget how to do it to an even average level. By example; we are required every year to do CPR training with our staff. Depsite the fact that our nurses have done this yearly for decades in some cases, they still forget all but the basics.
I think that if I were to look to all the advanced first aid kit that we keep on the premises I would suggest that most of it is medication for medical emergencies; anaphalactic reactions/ diabetic comas/ MI. However I would not suggest anyone but a trained doctor use these without proper and prior training. Even an epi-pen could kill someone with heart problems.
I guess to sumise; if it makes you are going to circumnavigate then you should do an advanced first aid course. You should also have ascertained a full medical history from the crew in writing before you set off. You should carry basic first aid, as well as as much medication and supplies as you know how to use and administer. We carry black silk sutures/antibiotics and local anaesthic syringes whenever we are more than one day from civilisation.
However for day sailing, coastal cruising offshore racing or basically anywhere within radio contact I believe that a one day RYA course will be more than enough. It will no doubt cost a fair bit less too.
Click to expand...

Staff where I work are routinely in this position, and we are all required to do a 3 day, intensive First Aid course before going to Antarctica, renewable every 3 years. However, we are always backed up by doctors who can give advice by radio, and because of our unusual situation, are given First Aid kits that include equipment and medication that would not be permissible in a UK coastal or offshore yacht (e.g. prescription drugs, including morphine). In addition to the training, we also have a comprehensive first aid manual tailored to our situation. The idea is that if you are a thousand miles from help, you will be able to do the following:

1) Cope with immediate danger to life.
2) Stabilize a patient and (where necessary) relieve pain.
3) Convey an adequate description to a doctor.
4) Follow doctor's instructions.

Part of our training is also intended to make us useful assistants to a doctor - who will not have any nursing or paramedic support.

The advice to do as little as possible is fair enough - but it also requires a judgement of what is "as little as possible". Even in well frequented coastal waters, it is likely that you will have to support an injured or sick person for 1-2 (or more) hours before a lifeboat or helicopter reaches you. Treatment given in those hours can make the difference between life and death.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
.... Treatment given in those hours can make the difference between life and death.
Click to expand...

The point being made as I see it is that treatment can be learned from books. If one is reasonably intelligent and diligent then the knowledge to prolong life is there to be had independently from the courses. The fact that a person attends a course and does not practice the course content almost makes the course useless i.e. intelligent and diligent people may be best served by reading a book.

I have been doing first aid courses since 1980 and a good read is far better than the majority of the first aid courses I have attended. In fact many of the RYA courses have been only useful for practising resuscitation. There is a large variance in instructor competency.

Ubergeekian - you sound like an intelligent chap, self study, distance learning is likely to provide a better quality learning experience for you and your patient.
 
nickfabbri said:
As a surgeon who has done far in excess of the basic first aid course, I would possibly suggest that first aid required for boating can best be learned from a good book and the internet. This is obviously assuming a moderate amount of common sense with no medical knowledge.
I would also add that basic first aid is common sense; sprains,cuts,bruises, upset stomachs,seasickness,dehydration . You could possibly see if a set of flow diagram flashcards exist to help with diagnosis. More advanced first aid and more complex problems; breaks, profuse bleeding,concussion,MI ( heart attack) need huge knowledge bases, far in excess of a first aid course to be delivered effectively. Medical histories, medications possible complications all of these are hugely important before beginning complex treatment. A treating first aiders/ doctors experience is also invaluable if you are suturing a wound etc
I genuinely believe that overly keen or ambitious first aiders can cause as many problems as they solve by not fully understanding what they are doing.
The best procedure for first aid is to firstly 1. remove the person or the danger wherever possible, 2. make the person comfortable 3. assess the patients condition and then if you are in any way unsure about the health or condition of the patient then find help either by getting ashore/calling mayday depending on the situation.
The only caveat to this would be if the patient has stopped breathing. In this case I would advise even the untrained to attempt chest compressions
Click to expand...

I find this post amazing I would have thought that a surgeon would have wanted more people trained in Basic Life support, First Aid. Being trained in first aid is important and saves many many lives. The ability to stop someone from bleeding to death, or choking to death can only be a good thing. Dreadful post IMHO

regards

Rab
 
I think that either you have misread my posts or I have not been eloquent enough to get my point across.
I believe that everyone of adult age should be trained in basic life support. I believe whole heartedly that it should be taught in schools as first aid is. Basic life support training en masse has been implemented in Seattle and the mortality rates from MI's has dropped hugely.
However, THIS IS NOT WHAT THE OP ASKED. I stand by by original and what I consider to be a well thought out answer, and that is that for most sailing needs aside from ocean going passages, a one day RYA course is more than sufficient
 
At our club on the South Coast, we have First Aid Courses every now and again, run by professionals from local hospitals etc; I'd think clubs would be happy to do this* and it would share the costs.

* Please don't tell me 'Elf N' Safety' would make the club liable if members turned out to be something less than fully trained surgeons if the worst happened...I'm currently chatting with someone who thinks my recommending 'anchors should be easy to let go, at launch / recovery when rigs are down and engines at their least reliable' is "dangerous as anchors may fall on someone's head" ! The point that anchors stay put during much more violent sailing seems irrelevant...:rolleyes:

As for the 'forgetting without constant practice', agreed; but our club had a way round this, for the CPR lessons a very pretty girl was volunteered as subject - yes, I was trampled in the rush !
 
nickfabbri said:
I think that either you have misread my posts or I have not been eloquent enough to get my point across.
I believe that everyone of adult age should be trained in basic life support. I believe whole heartedly that it should be taught in schools as first aid is. Basic life support training en masse has been implemented in Seattle and the mortality rates from MI's has dropped hugely.
However, THIS IS NOT WHAT THE OP ASKED. I stand by by original and what I consider to be a well thought out answer, and that is that for most sailing needs aside from ocean going passages, a one day RYA course is more than sufficient
Click to expand...

Thats not what your original post stated, you told the OP to go to the internet and read a book to learn first aid NOT do a recognised first aid course as you seem to be saying now!

Your last post IMHO is nearly a complete U-Turn on the original which is good to see.

If you want me to take the original post apart bit by bit I certainly will :)

Regards

Rab
 
Do an outdoor first aid course and read the booklet again each year.
This requirement to retrain all the time is cobblers.
The human body doesn't change all the time, the same skills that saved lives 20 years ago will save lives today.
All you need to do is follow the simple acronyms ABC (airway, breathing, circulation) and/or BBB (breathing,bleeding, bones) and then get the casualty attended to by someone who can progress the treatment.

First Aid is just that. Stabilising the casualty.

If you are 3 weeks from civilisation you need much more training, but it has become medical support by this time.
 
Ok time to try and clarify this.We are discussing first aid vs basic life support.
For sailing use, i would NOT suggest that a first aid course is required if you have a little common sense and are willing to learn from books. You can learn most of the ways of treating simple cuts,sprains choking from the internet and books. I stand by this even to the non medically trained. If you still wanted to do a course then a one day RYA course is going to be above and beyond what you will need unless you are going far away from radio contact and emergency evac.
I think that if we are discussing the CPR aspect of basic life support. This method which is required to be refreshed by many personnel every year is invaluable in prolonging life in patients who have stopped breathing, and who have had a cardiac arrest, ie their hearts have stopped beating. The early intervention by trained members of the public in these cases massively increases the chance of the emergency services being able to do something. This is believe should be build into the national curriculum.
However CPR needs emergency services there within 20 minutes at the latest. It is fine when you are on land, a complete necessity when in a city. But when you are at sea i'm not sure that that this is necessary.
We are all allowed to disagree on subjects and posts. I am trying to point out that there is a difference between first aid and basic life support.
 
Lakesailor said:
Do an outdoor first aid course and read the booklet again each year.
This requirement to retrain all the time is cobblers.
The human body doesn't change all the time, the same skills that saved lives 20 years ago will save lives today.
.
Click to expand...


I respectfully disagree. As a Paramedic, I do an annual refresher in CPR (not least because the protocols change every few years based on new evidence) I also perform CPR on real patients regularly (often on several occasions in a week) I still find that I benefit from retraining to ensure that the rate and depth of my compressions are adequate. It is this that prolongs viability of life, rather than blowing air into the patient (which is of course important at a secondary level) Any attempt at CPR is a good thing, but the attempt will be much better if it is undertaken by someone who has had the opportunity to have properly supervised practice at regular intervals.

If anyone wants to invest in real lifesaving equipment, rather than buying an advanced first aid course and a Gucci medicine chest which will never get used before the drugs go out of date, can I suggest that they invest in a basic automated external defibrillator which will probably cost around the same amount of money? They arent cheap, but can be bought for comfortably under £1,000. This could save a life even if you are sailing on a congested south coast river with a helicopter only 5 minutes flying away.
 
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