Firming second hand prices?

It’s hard to find fault with anything HF is saying, new boat book price should be the price, period.

Fwiw - we bought a new boat in 2011 at £300k which was list price but received £180k for our part ex which our broker moved on for £89k.

We traded that boat in two years later for £300k but again paid list price for the new boat, that £300k part ex value resulted in the boat being sold for £170k.

So roughly speaking - boats to a total value of £1m resulted in discounting - (from list price) - of circa £221k or 22%.

Of course dealers do this for a reason - perhaps to make financing work for the client or because of downward pressure from the factory or bank but either way it just undermines trust and more than that, it undermines second hand segment cos if there’s a 22% delta between the price of two identical boats then someone’s going to be pretty bummed out at exit.

I guess the perfect model would be boats being built to order and sold at list price - builder confidence and backing to offer garaunteed buy backs or part exchanges for up to 5 years, (after all, surely its better for them to make more that one profit per boat?). Dealer stock becoming a thing of the past and finance companies being far more diligent with regard to the real cost of the boat rather than the massaged cost to change.

Anecdotally - the new boat arriving in November is Hull #635 - almost a 1 year waiting list and didn’t quite get 10% off list for cash. I think the market is really picking up now...
 
I'm sure most boat dealers would be delighted to sell everything at full list price. I'm sure nothing would please them more! :D

But if you owned a boat sales company and had a boat for sale for £300,000 that had been in stock for a year that you just couldn't shift and perhaps was about to be superseded by a new model, would you honestly refuse to sell it if someone wanted £500 off? How about £1,000? How about £5,000? How about £50,000 if it owed you £245,000 and you REALLY needed to see the back of it?

And when you get the next one and things have improved a bit (or the rival boat that's been undercutting you and stealing your customers has gone up in price or gone out of production) should you be forced to only ever take the £5K profit you took previously in exceptional circumstances?

With 'big ticket' items that have very patchy supply and demand, simply nailing a price against it and folding your arms and saying 'take it or leave it' is a bit unrealistic surely?

Did you pay list price for your car? Or buy a house without trying to negotiate a better deal for yourself? Or sold a house and been forced to take an offer after not getting what you hoped? Most of us have so is it really fair to want a deal for yourself, (or knocking a bit off to get a deal), but expect other sellers to stick to their guns for the rest of the world?

Personally, when I part exchange my car (or boat) and the dealer asks me 'what I need for it' I always say "I'll take £1 for it if you'll sell me the new one for £2".

Point being, they can make the list price and the p/x price whatever they like - the price to change, and what you get in return for it, is the ONLY figure that matters.
 
Nigelpickin said:
It’s hard to find fault with anything HF is saying, new boat book price should be the price, period.

Fwiw - we bought a new boat in 2011 at £300k which was list price but received £180k for our part ex which our broker moved on for £89k.

We traded that boat in two years later for £300k but again paid list price for the new boat, that £300k part ex value resulted in the boat being sold for £170k...
Click to expand...

And that is why the boat industry is a joke with zero buyer confidence. It revolves around people making mad decisions and plucking figures out of thin air. Once you take off brokers fees and selling costs that first £300k boat actually sold for £200k. So is it any wonder the used market is a turgid minefield with people bidding in the nuts because they have no idea what the true values are. I have nothing against a bit of discount but that's not even in the ballpark. Try buying a new £30k BMW for £20k. It ain't happening.

To be fair when the boat sold at £170k that was pretty accurate if it was £200k new but how would you ever arrive be at £170k when list price 2 years prior was £300k. It looks like those boats were a disaster.

To allow full £300k list price 2 years later for a boat that everyone in the deal knows was bought for £200k is once again crazy. Someone is trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes. Why? What is so crap about these boats that you have to play games and pretend they are selling for more money than they are? Is it a willy waving thing? Are they hoping to mug some poor sod for £300k only to tell him 2 years later everyone else only paid £200k. Wow, that will really help your reputation and buyer confidence.

We all know stuff depreciates so take a leaf from the motor trade and be honest. We all know what cars sell for give or take. Certainly you're not going to be 33% out.

An industry built on sand. There's a reason why we don't change boats very often and I should be able to work out prices because I do it in the motor trade for a day job. I haven't got a clue what boats are worth or actually sell for. I have no idea how good a deal I've had on either of the new boats purchased which if they genuinely were good deals is a shame.

Henry :)
 
Last edited:
Most buyers of boats built at a certain West Country yard have to sign a gagging clause if they were lucky enough to buy it when the dealers were desperate to see a stock boat , I'm sure times are different at the moment but as we all know everything has its highs and lows , at the moment it's high , there is very little used stock anywhere in the UK that's a reason why I don't own a boat at the moment, I won't buy again until the market returns to how it was 2 years ago .
It may not for a while but I'm not desperate enough to go boating .
Let's see how things are reported in 4/6 weeks time after SBS .
 
Paul, why do you want things to return to. made up numbers and zero confidence? That helps no one.

Feast & famine is no future.

If we are now seeing boats achieving new list price, give or take and strong residuals that's good because it signals confidence in the market place. The problem is it's been smoke & mirrors for so long that some will never believe.

Henry :)
 
Well I don't want to see distressed sales from anyone. We've managed to make a living for over 20 years on the basis of buyer and seller satisfaction. It leads to long term confidence, a healthy supply of both cars and customers. Events like the crash of 2008 only work to de-rail the train. Distressed deals don't lead to repeat business.

What you need to realise Paul is that it doesn't matter if you have to pay strong prices to buy a boat providing there is an equally strong market when it comes time to sell. More importantly that strong market helps all the supporting industries, inspections, servicing, repair, cleaning, storing, selling, renting, training, financing, refurbishing etc.

If I genuinely knew what boats were worth I could make an educated decision, as it stands I just have to close my eyes, roll the dice and pray. Not an ideal way to spend the value of a decent house.......

Henry :)
 
Nigelpickin said:
It’s hard to find fault with anything HF is saying, new boat book price should be the price, period.

Fwiw - we bought a new boat in 2011 at £300k which was list price but received £180k for our part ex which our broker moved on for £89k.

We traded that boat in two years later for £300k but again paid list price for the new boat, that £300k part ex value resulted in the boat being sold for £170k.

So roughly speaking - boats to a total value of £1m resulted in discounting - (from list price) - of circa £221k or 22%.

Of course dealers do this for a reason - perhaps to make financing work for the client or because of downward pressure from the factory or bank but either way it just undermines trust and more than that, it undermines second hand segment cos if there’s a 22% delta between the price of two identical boats then someone’s going to be pretty bummed out at exit.

I guess the perfect model would be boats being built to order and sold at list price - builder confidence and backing to offer garaunteed buy backs or part exchanges for up to 5 years, (after all, surely its better for them to make more that one profit per boat?). Dealer stock becoming a thing of the past and finance companies being far more diligent with regard to the real cost of the boat rather than the massaged cost to change.

Anecdotally - the new boat arriving in November is Hull #635 - almost a 1 year waiting list and didn’t quite get 10% off list for cash. I think the market is really picking up now...
Click to expand...

Surely if the boat sales co wrote both the new and the used boats back you would have saved the vat on 221k
 
henryf said:
Well I don't want to see distressed sales from anyone. We've managed to make a living for over 20 years on the basis of buyer and seller satisfaction. It leads to long term confidence, a healthy supply of both cars and customers. Events like the crash of 2008 only work to de-rail the train. Distressed deals don't lead to repeat business.

What you need to realise Paul is that it doesn't matter if you have to pay strong prices to buy a boat providing there is an equally strong market when it comes time to sell. More importantly that strong market helps all the supporting industries, inspections, servicing, repair, cleaning, storing, selling, renting, training, financing, refurbishing etc.

If I genuinely knew what boats were worth I could make an educated decision, as it stands I just have to close my eyes, roll the dice and pray. Not an ideal way to spend the value of a decent house.......

Henry :)
Click to expand...

But you are viewing as a sales person, just pay what you are comfortable with and enjoy.........saying that, I will be biding in the bollox !
 
Whitelighter said:
I think Paul Is just saying he wants to be able to have a choice of distress sold bargain boats so he can scoop up his next one.
Click to expand...

Your sort if correct there Jez , you spent years looking for your bargain and found the right boat at the right price . The last few months I've never been so busy with pre purchase sea trials , the price is always discussed as we have to make a valuation for the buyers insurance, I have to keep myself quiet as I'm finding a typical any make boat at£150k was bought for 20to 30k less 18 months/ 2 years ago. It's not that long ago our long established U.K. Builder dealer threw all the px boats to other dealers because they were not interested in the slightest giving the px boats a warranty , a clean and a polish all because they could make enough on the new boat alone. Now every supplier is trying to make as much as they can from anything .
Dealers used to send there service work out now they have there own engineers to save money .
Let's see what happens in the future , I'm not so sure it's a fluid as people think .
 
henryf said:
Well I don't want to see distressed sales from anyone. We've managed to make a living for over 20 years on the basis of buyer and seller satisfaction. It leads to long term confidence, a healthy supply of both cars and customers. Events like the crash of 2008 only work to de-rail the train. Distressed deals don't lead to repeat business.

What you need to realise Paul is that it doesn't matter if you have to pay strong prices to buy a boat providing there is an equally strong market when it comes time to sell. More importantly that strong market helps all the supporting industries, inspections, servicing, repair, cleaning, storing, selling, renting, training, financing, refurbishing etc.

If I genuinely knew what boats were worth I could make an educated decision, as it stands I just have to close my eyes, roll the dice and pray. Not an ideal way to spend the value of a decent house.......

Henry :)[/QUOTE

Henry you must have forgot what I do for a living .
The boat industry is nothing like your car market so ask yourself why would you pay top money for stock if the market could drop in the near future, we all know everything goes in cycles , it's how the world goes around.
Of late I've never been so busy , it's probably been one of the best years I've had and most of the work is because my clients have had to keep there boats longer instead of swapping as regular as they would have liked, the reason they have not swapped is the lack of availability to choose another boat at the right price , my clients to me are more than just clients , I talk to them on a regular basis even when we may only meet once a year around service time.
Feedback to me is always strong , seriously Henry please don't lecture me.
Click to expand...
 
Henry..if one were take supercars as perhaps a more similar product..is pricing new and second hand very transparent? I wouldn't know ?
 
volvopaul said:
henryf said:
Well I don't want to see distressed sales from anyone. We've managed to make a living for over 20 years on the basis of buyer and seller satisfaction. It leads to long term confidence, a healthy supply of both cars and customers. Events like the crash of 2008 only work to de-rail the train. Distressed deals don't lead to repeat business.

What you need to realise Paul is that it doesn't matter if you have to pay strong prices to buy a boat providing there is an equally strong market when it comes time to sell. More importantly that strong market helps all the supporting industries, inspections, servicing, repair, cleaning, storing, selling, renting, training, financing, refurbishing etc.

If I genuinely knew what boats were worth I could make an educated decision, as it stands I just have to close my eyes, roll the dice and pray. Not an ideal way to spend the value of a decent house.......

Henry :)[/QUOTE

Henry you must have forgot what I do for a living .
The boat industry is nothing like your car market so ask yourself why would you pay top money for stock if the market could drop in the near future, we all know everything goes in cycles , it's how the world goes around.
Of late I've never been so busy , it's probably been one of the best years I've had and most of the work is because my clients have had to keep there boats longer instead of swapping as regular as they would have liked, the reason they have not swapped is the lack of availability to choose another boat at the right price , my clients to me are more than just clients , I talk to them on a regular basis even when we may only meet once a year around service time.
Feedback to me is always strong , seriously Henry please don't lecture me.
Click to expand...

Question Paul, when times are good, as they are for you now, do you put your prices up and maximise your margins at the expense of your clients? Or do you say, have a rate card that’s merely a starting point for a conversation with a new client but ultimately, do you reduce your prices when challenged?

I suspect that you are busy because your work is well respected and your prices are fair and consistent. So on your micro level, (and the same applied to me in my business), clients can rest assured that there is no pricing hierarchy.

My experience at boat shows is that you see a boat that takes your fancy - you give a sign to the dealer who will give you a ‘best’ price. You see another boat that’s in the running, you get a call later that evening from dealer #1 and explain to them that your are trying to make a decision between his and dealer #2’s boat and dealer #1 says, ‘let me see if I can sharpen my pencil’. Right there - that’s where I lose confidence in the process, (although it hasn’t stopped me buying boats!).

Perhaps I’m being naive but is it really too much to hope for that my factory order £600k hull #635 is costing the same as hulls 610 through 650? Cos if it ain’t then someone is going to be taking a hit on the way out and that’s regardless of the cost to change - which is just man maths imho.

Someone’s cited cars and houses as examples to counter H’s POV - well if anyone is getting cut prices on factory order cars beyond 5% then let’s hear about that? As someone who has bought a couple of new builds from different developers in the last few years I know that you’re doing well to get discounting, (although there will be sweetenters), because the developer will rather hold the price than discount. And that’s a good thing because it shores up the subsequent sale values further down the line.

I don’t think, (although I don’t wish to speak on anyone’s behalf), that Henry is suggesting for one minute that anyone wants to pay top price for a boat but rather we all want to know what the best price is and that the best price is not dependant on some poor mug subsidising prices.
Click to expand...
 
I'm not sure that the boat market is ever going to behave the same as the car or property market.

There's far more cars so the market can be established with comparable sales and prices. Also, a car model is a far more homogeneous commodity than a boat so price comparisons are reliable. Individual car sales rarely have such variables as exchange rates, international locations, and high cost of being a patient seller (marina, service, finance costs).

Property sales can be even more individually variable than cars or boats. The price of say for example two similar properties but in different areas can be hugely different. Also, the price of a property can vary enormously depending on market conditions, price of finance, method of sale (auction, private sale etc)., and sometimes, if you've been waiting a number of years to move on to a certain road or acquire a particular plot, you may have to pay whatevere price is asked anyway.

I think mobo and s/y manufacturers and agents like the restricted access to info because they can fill the vacuum with illusions about future value. And even when they do a deal they like to allude to 'less depreciation than other brands' with the offers of full value trade in against the full retail price of a new boat.

I share Henry's sentiment as a boat owner/buyer, but I think that the industry has decided that it's not best for them to be transparent.

Garold.
 
List price of my last factory order Merc was £35k, I paid £26500. Factory order, to my spec.
Last new house bought from Charles church negotiated just under 10% off (combination of cash discount and allowances)
Car was 2013, house was 2011. Just bought a second hand house and struggled to get £3k off. My new tesla I got £2750 off.

I think when you are buying stuff this big you need to look at value to you and what you want to pay. When I bought the boat I mentally write off the purchase price (though was only £80k), but I'm not looking to sell it anytime soon so it's value today is irrelevant.

My original post was an observation that older used boat values seem to be strengthening a bit
 
I'm not sure that the boat market is ever going to behave the same as the car or property market.

There's far more cars so the market can be established with comparable sales and prices. Also, a car model is a far more homogeneous commodity than a boat so price comparisons are reliable. Individual car sales rarely have such variables as exchange rates, international locations, and high cost of being a patient seller (marina, service, finance costs).

Property sales can be even more individually variable than cars or boats. The price of say for example two similar properties but in different areas can be hugely different. Also, the price of a property can vary enormously depending on market conditions, price of finance, method of sale (auction, private sale etc)., and sometimes, if you've been waiting a number of years to move on to a certain road or acquire a particular plot, you may have to pay whatevere price is asked anyway.

I think mobo and s/y manufacturers and agents like the restricted access to info because they can fill the vacuum with illusions about future value. And even when they do a deal they like to allude to 'less depreciation than other brands' with the offers of full value trade in against the full retail price of a new boat.

I share Henry's sentiment as a boat owner/buyer, but I think that the industry has decided that it's not best for them not to be transparent.

Garold.
 
As per what whitelighter says, ~20% off new factory order cars is not uncommon , i got 19% off my last bmw , it was a brand new factory order,ie to my exact spec.

That was a straight purchase,ie no trade in.
 
Last edited:
Nigelpickin said:
volvopaul said:
Question Paul, when times are good, as they are for you now, do you put your prices up and maximise your margins at the expense of your clients? Or do you say, have a rate card that’s merely a starting point for a conversation with a new client but ultimately, do you reduce your prices when challenged?

I suspect that you are busy because your work is well respected and your prices are fair and consistent. So on your micro level, (and the same applied to me in my business), clients can rest assured that there is no pricing hierarchy.

My experience at boat shows is that you see a boat that takes your fancy - you give a sign to the dealer who will give you a ‘best’ price. You see another boat that’s in the running, you get a call later that evening from dealer #1 and explain to them that your are trying to make a decision between his and dealer #2’s boat and dealer #1 says, ‘let me see if I can sharpen my pencil’. Right there - that’s where I lose confidence in the process, (although it hasn’t stopped me buying boats!).

Perhaps I’m being naive but is it really too much to hope for that my factory order £600k hull #635 is costing the same as hulls 610 through 650? Cos if it ain’t then someone is going to be taking a hit on the way out and that’s regardless of the cost to change - which is just man maths imho.

Someone’s cited cars and houses as examples to counter H’s POV - well if anyone is getting cut prices on factory order cars beyond 5% then let’s hear about that? As someone who has bought a couple of new builds from different developers in the last few years I know that you’re doing well to get discounting, (although there will be sweetenters), because the developer will rather hold the price than discount. And that’s a good thing because it shores up the subsequent sale values further down the line.

I don’t think, (although I don’t wish to speak on anyone’s behalf), that Henry is suggesting for one minute that anyone wants to pay top price for a boat but rather we all want to know what the best price is and that the best price is not dependant on some poor mug subsidising prices.
Click to expand...

Hi Nigel , my labour rates for servicing and general repairs have not increased for about 3 years , I've always believed in repeat business in this sector, I have over the years built myself a nice client base whereby I do t have to go looking for
New business, I cannot stop Volvo increasing there parts prices.
I live 3 hours drive from where I operate , I don't mind the drive as up until last year had my Fairline moored on the Hamble which I used as a base to work from.
I will get back into boating but from June last year I've concentrated more on my other love which is Rallying , I've also invested in some property and taken holidays abroad to guarantee some decent weather. Like most on here why pay over the odds for something when you don't have to .
I fully understand the used market , although I'm not in sales I am involved in the process acting for the buyers.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top