Filling empty propane cylinder from another full cylinder

[VicS]

socal.co.uk markets an adapter kit for worldwide travel. easily done except if you listen to some folks on here.

Go for it. Easy and safe if done intelligently.

This presumably ?

http://www.socal.co.uk/toolbox/regu...arine-universal-gas-cylinder-adaptor-kit.html

and it contains all that is necessary to refill cylinders world wide ?

 

[Monique]

Not quite. It is called "Marine Universal Adapter Kit" IIRC.

CHEERS

 

[VicS]

Not quite. It is called "Marine Universal Adapter Kit" IIRC.

CHEERS

That is the one then but I dont think it contains the fittings or the hose necessary for filling bottles, just a range of adapters to enable various different types of cylinder, found in different countries, to be connected to your system.

Id be surprised if Socal offered a kit for filling bottles when Calor tell you not to do it!

A different picture of the same kit

 

[GHA]

That is the one then but I dont think it contains the fittings or the hose necessary for filling bottles, just a range of adapters to enable various different types of cylinder, found in different countries, to be connected to your system.

Id be surprised if Socal offered a kit for filling bottles when Calor tell you not to do it!

A different picture of the same kit

That's the one I have, bought with a short hose. Not cheap but paid for itself by decanting from a hss bottle rented for a day to refill when stuck where only gaz was available at silly prices.

 

[DickB]

For the record I had an odd sized Bbq gas tank that was just the right size and refilled it many times with a straight tube and fittings from a uk bought tank. Never had a problem but I was very careful. I found that it happily filled to about 2/3rds full but then the rate slowed and I got bored waiting.

Just as loads of people have said, the full tank was inverted and the bbq tank was kept a little cooler by spraying it with a hose.

No big deal. Any leaks you can smell a mile off.

Cheers

 

[vyv_cox]

For the record I had an odd sized Bbq gas tank that was just the right size and refilled it many times with a straight tube and fittings from a uk bought tank. Never had a problem but I was very careful. I found that it happily filled to about 2/3rds full but then the rate slowed and I got bored waiting.

Just as loads of people have said, the full tank was inverted and the bbq tank was kept a little cooler by spraying it with a hose.

No big deal. Any leaks you can smell a mile off.

Cheers

I can see that you have been careful, or maybe impatient? The biggest possible problem is that the bottle being filled is completely full. When connected to the appliance, especially if left a while allowing it to warm up, liquefied gas will spray from the burner. This can be in the form of a sizeable jet that will reach the deckhead or the bulkhead of most boats.

 

[lw395]

I believe the biggest possible problem is that you can rupture the bottle if it is completely full then warm it up so the liquid expands more than the bottle.
I think you'd have to work hard to do this. But it is feasible.

 

[Steve_N]

The biggest possible problem is that the bottle being filled is completely full. When connected to the appliance, especially if left a while allowing it to warm up, liquefied gas will spray from the burner. This can be in the form of a sizeable jet that will reach the deckhead or the bulkhead of most boats.

I tested this scenario once and the burner continued to operate as normal even with the gas cylinder heated, inverted and shaken, so I'd be interested to know if you are repeating something that you have heard, or have you seen this happen, or have evidence that it will happen?

 

[VicMallows]

Bottles designed for refilling, mine are Gaslow, have an internal level gauge that prevents over-filling. Even with bottles like this it is illegal to refill one standing on the forecourt of a filling station, it is only allowed to fill ones built into the vehicle.

Vyv, I don't think this is quite correct. I know that GasLow is intended for permanent installation, with an external filling point. However the (lightweight GRP) Safefill bottles
http://www.safefill.co.uk/ are specifically intended as stand-alone bottles and intended to be filled directly from the forecourt pump.

Yes, there is certainly a reluctance by many filling stations to permit filling of these at present, but this is more a case of ignorance or a simple 'play safe' policy. However there is certainly an established - and growing - list of stations which DO freely and legally permit filling.

(Now, I won't get into discussing filling Camping Gaz cylinders from 10Kg refillable bottles )

 

[vyv_cox]

See this notice http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/52-20.htm
'1. HSE has received reports of members of the public using purpose made adaptors to fill portable LPG cylinders at refuelling stations dispensing LPG for automotive use, commonly referred to as ‘Autogas’.

2. The filling of portable LPG cylinders is a potentially highly hazardous activity, the 'safe' filling of portable LPG cylinders requires a number critical safety measures. Automotive LPG filling stations incorporate safety measures to make filling vehicles 'safe', they do not include all of the specific measures for filling portable LPG cylinders.

3. UKLPG Industry Information Sheet No.28 ‘FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES’ explains the reasons why transportable cylinders should not be filled at stations designed for filling vehicles. The guidance is freely available from the UKLPG website link to external website.

I cannot find leaflet 28 on their site but I have found http://autogasleisure.co.uk/pdf/uklpg.pdf which it says replaces sheet 24.

This seems to be it
FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG CYLINDERS AT
AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES
It is our advice that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be refilled at autogas refuelling sites.
It is our view that UK Health and Safety law, particularly the new Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations (DSEAR) and the Carriage of Dangerous Goods
and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations, impose significant duties on the site operator to ensure safety. Autogas filling points are places of work and their personnel have responsibility for safety to everyone on the site, including the general public. They authorise the flow of gas from the dispenser and they may be considered, in law, the filler.
Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. Staff at autogas filling points cannot fulfil statutory obligations as they have neither. Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.
Tanks which are permanently attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or similar) come under the Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations and present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites.

It appears that it is not illegal for me to do it but it is very close to illegal for them to allow me.

 

[vyv_cox]

I tested this scenario once and the burner continued to operate as normal even with the gas cylinder heated, inverted and shaken, so I'd be interested to know if you are repeating something that you have heard, or have you seen this happen, or have evidence that it will happen?

Saw it demonstrated at Chorley Fire Brigades training centre. Spectacular.

 

[VicS]

I can see that you have been careful, or maybe impatient? The biggest possible problem is that the bottle being filled is completely full. When connected to the appliance, especially if left a while allowing it to warm up, liquefied gas will spray from the burner. This can be in the form of a sizeable jet that will reach the deckhead or the bulkhead of most boats.

I tested this scenario once and the burner continued to operate as normal even with the gas cylinder heated, inverted and shaken, so I'd be interested to know if you are repeating something that you have heard, or have you seen this happen, or have evidence that it will happen?

Saw it demonstrated at Chorley Fire Brigades training centre. Spectacular.

Some disagreement about this then

I was thinking of trying it myself when Steve_N previously posted his findings and saved me the trouble, I thought.

It seemed unlikely to me that liquid would get past the regulator but i wanted to confirm that, or otherwise, by experimentation. Will now have to revisit my previous plans . Best done outdoors I think so will have to wait until the weather warms up a bit.


However ......... if an annexe M regulator is fitted, it will have an overpressure relief valve which should offer some protection from the effects of liquid entering the lp part of the system. I believe the standard for regulators has included annexe m for about 14 or 15 years therefore, because regulators should be replaced after 10 years , there should not still be any non annexe M compliant regulators still in use on boats.

 

[vyv_cox]

It seemed unlikely to me that liquid would get past the regulator but i wanted to confirm that, or otherwise, by experimentation. Will now have to revisit my previous plans . Best done outdoors I think so will have to wait until the weather warms up a bit.

I was thinking the same overnight. I guess a regulator would be effective up to the point where liquid filled the LP hose, so probably not going to happen in the vast majority of installations. The little bottles with a single burner on top don't have a regulator and that is probably the type I remember seeing. My blowlamp is the same and that definitely shoots a stream of liquid out if inverted.

 

[Boathook]

I believe the biggest possible problem is that you can rupture the bottle if it is completely full then warm it up so the liquid expands more than the bottle.
I think you'd have to work hard to do this. But it is feasible.

I have found the empty weight of my bottles and then use an electronic 'scale' to ensure that I don't exceed the empty bottle weight by 4.5Kg. If I did overfill I would have to reverse the bottles to get some liquid out. This roughly means that when the bottles are full they are between 9 and 10Kg each. I was amazed by how much the empty weight of the bottles does vary.

 

[GHA]

I have found the empty weight of my bottles and then use an electronic 'scale' to ensure that I don't exceed the empty bottle weight by 4.5Kg. If I did overfill I would have to reverse the bottles to get some liquid out. This roughly means that when the bottles are full they are between 9 and 10Kg each. I was amazed by how much the empty weight of the bottles does vary.

GRP bottles makes not overfilling very easy, you can see how much gas is in there. Homebase do bottles.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I've no intention of trying this although I can understand why others do having just paid £26 for a small camping gaz refill.

 

[lw395]

I've no intention of trying this although I can understand why others do having just paid £26 for a small camping gaz refill.

I just try to look at it as paying for itself the first time you eat on board instead of having a pub meal for 2.

 

[MengWalton]

I'm not normally against doing things and having a go. BUT on this occasion knowing the things that can go wrong, especially if you have no experience in this sort of thing. FOR the love of god please don't do it, it could go well it prob would however the one time it didnt the results could be catastrophic. Not alot of people realise the energy stored within gas cylinders.

I know this wouldnt happen in this particular case but to give you a good idea of how much energy is in stored pressure gas its a BLEVE (Boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion < if i remember correctly) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM0jtD_OWLU
PS- Its also good to watch just for the watch

 

[catmandoo]

When in Canado in the late 1970s we used propane instead of butane because of the ambient temperatures . all bottles were fitted with relief valves and the practice was to take the empty bottle to a filling station connect up like natural gas driven vehicle and when the relief valve went off the bottle was filled .
We then put the bottle in our trunk and drove away .
Thinking about it afterwards I often worried about the relief valve going off in the trunk as the pressure and temperature stabilised however heard no bad stories so I suppose it was safe . Had many a good camping trip though

 

[Jabs]

I've no intention of trying this although I can understand why others do having just paid £26 for a small camping gaz refill.

I have Gaslow refillable Camping Gaz size bottles which cost me less than THREE POUNDS to refill! and that is with vehicle LPG.

Tony