Filling empty propane cylinder from another full cylinder

[cliffordpope]

I tend to agree really - not worth the risk. But I have a technical query - OK, air will turn it into a bomb, but how can any air get in?
When your cylinder runs out, you turn it off. It contains only propane gas at low pressure. You get a new cylinder, connect on the high pressure pipe, connect to the other cylinder, bleed off the air in the pipe at the junction until it runs gas, then tighten. There is no air inside. You are not starting with a new empty (ie air-filled tank).

 

[DeeGee]

Needing to do this very thing and my search turned up this old thread, with so many names I remember... So, the serious question... how many subscribers, supporting this simple procedure, actually died ?? I suspect and hope - zero.

I am really glad to find it, especially since I gave away my copy of Nigel Calder's book "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual", suggested by Salty John. Interesting that NC would go into print describing how to do something that the naysayers think is so incredibly dangerous.

 

[pyrojames]

I did it many times. I am not a ghost. I wouldn't recommend it if you don't know what you are doing!

 

[Boathook]

I did it many times. I am not a ghost. I wouldn't recommend it if you don't know what you are doing!

Plus 1, and I still do it.

 

[vyv_cox]

Very many filling stations in Greece, and probably other countries, decant bottles in the yard out the back for exchange.

 

[DeeGee]

Plus 1, and I still do it.

Surely, there has to be a first time?

One cannot be an expert without doing something? (Except tennis of course, I watch Wimbledon each year as a tennis expert despite never having played the game, and often wish I could get down there and explain to Andy how he could handle Federer or Djokovic, whom I am sure I could beat if they would let me play him... but enough of this whimsy...)

 

[Triassic]

My father runs a boatyard in Northeast Brazil and has been just this for visiting yachts for the past 40 years. His process is exactly as described by some on here, hang one bottle above the other with various connections between them, and I think I saw the bottom one standing in a big bucket of ice. It's not a quick process but nothing happens fast in Brazil, although I did when I saw this operation taking place within 20' of someone who was busy welding a trailer axle......

 

[geem]

To all the scardy cats. My gas bottle is designed to be filled at an LPG garage just like my car. nobody says that is any riskier than filling with petrol.
The garage has a big bottle and my fuel tank or gas bottle is the small bottle. So the only risk is poor pipework and connections at the garage where I fill up or in the garden shed where you might gravity fill another bottle. Do it correctly and the risks are minimal. The sensible on here have already advised how to do it safely.

 

[Heckler]

To all the scardy cats. My gas bottle is designed to be filled at an LPG garage just like my car. nobody says that is any riskier than filling with petrol.
The garage has a big bottle and my fuel tank or gas bottle is the small bottle. So the only risk is poor pipework and connections at the garage where I fill up or in the garden shed where you might gravity fill another bottle. Do it correctly and the risks are minimal. The sensible on here have already advised how to do it safely.

Exactly! They think nothing of filling a car with petrol, another "light end" liquid that turns in to gas before combusting in the engine.
Stu

 

[vyv_cox]

To all the scardy cats. My gas bottle is designed to be filled at an LPG garage just like my car. nobody says that is any riskier than filling with petrol.
The garage has a big bottle and my fuel tank or gas bottle is the small bottle. So the only risk is poor pipework and connections at the garage where I fill up or in the garden shed where you might gravity fill another bottle. Do it correctly and the risks are minimal. The sensible on here have already advised how to do it safely.

But it isn't quite as straightforward as you suggest. Bottles designed for refilling, mine are Gaslow, have an internal level gauge that prevents over-filling. Even with bottles like this it is illegal to refill one standing on the forecourt of a filling station, it is only allowed to fill ones built into the vehicle. I agree with you that doing it sensibly there is little risk but I would suggest that there are plenty of non-sensible people around.

 

[geem]

But it isn't quite as straightforward as you suggest. Bottles designed for refilling, mine are Gaslow, have an internal level gauge that prevents over-filling. Even with bottles like this it is illegal to refill one standing on the forecourt of a filling station, it is only allowed to fill ones built into the vehicle. I agree with you that doing it sensibly there is little risk but I would suggest that there are plenty of non-sensible people around.

I don't think it is illegal. I think some petrol stations ban it. My bottle is a GasSafe bottle also with an internal device to stop it being overfilled. The guys that designed and sell GasSafe in Stoke went to a lot of trouble to persuade independent garages that have an lpg pump to fill these bottles because of the added safety. You don't need the bottle built in to fill it.
We like this particular bottle as it has no steel bits to rust and you can see through it so always know how much gas we have.

 

[vyv_cox]

I don't think it is illegal. I think some petrol stations ban it. My bottle is a GasSafe bottle also with an internal device to stop it being overfilled. The guys that designed and sell GasSafe in Stoke went to a lot of trouble to persuade independent garages that have an lpg pump to fill these bottles because of the added safety. You don't need the bottle built in to fill it.
We like this particular bottle as it has no steel bits to rust and you can see through it so always know how much gas we have.

'Members of the public who refill LPG cylinders using Autogas refuelling equipment not only create a serious risk to their own safety and the safety of others, but are also contravening UK Health and Safety Regulations, Weights and Measures Regulations and Consumer Safety legislation. These Regulations impose important legal duties on the site operator to ensure the safety of both their employees and members of the public. In the event of an accident as a result of this type of activity, the site operator could be liable to prosecution. Calor is therefore urging Autogas refuelling site operators to be vigilant and take appropriate action to prevent the unlawful and potentially dangerous re-filling cylinders in this manner.'

https://www.calor.co.uk/news/calor-...of-lpg-cylinders-at-autogas-refuelling-sites/

I know that people get away with it but it is technically illegal, as the link says. In Italy and Spain, where forecourt attendants are more common than in UK, they even look askance at bottles installed in motorhomes and may take some persuasion to fill them.

 

[[3889]]

'Members of the public who refill LPG cylinders using Autogas refuelling equipment not only create a serious risk to their own safety and the safety of others, but are also contravening UK Health and Safety Regulations, Weights and Measures Regulations and Consumer Safety legislation. These Regulations impose important legal duties on the site operator .....

So, as Geem states, it is not illegal to fill a bottle at a garage forecourt, though it may be illegal for the forecourt operator to allow filling. I have been refused permission to fill a Gaslow installation, even after production of the appropriate certification showing the legality of such. That is why I now use a more discreet, and considerably cheaper, adapter on a standard Calor bottle, with which I have never been challenged.
That said, I only fill cylinders which are empty and with the benefit of a metered supply. I would be concerned about overfilling by decanting from a bottle, with the consequences described above.

 

[VO5]

I tend to agree really - not worth the risk. But I have a technical query - OK, air will turn it into a bomb, but how can any air get in?
When your cylinder runs out, you turn it off. It contains only propane gas at low pressure. You get a new cylinder, connect on the high pressure pipe, connect to the other cylinder, bleed off the air in the pipe at the junction until it runs gas, then tighten. There is no air inside. You are not starting with a new empty (ie air-filled tank).

Yes, like you, I am waiting for Allangrey333 to explain how air gets into the empty bottle in the first instance. I am really intruiged.

 

[lw395]

'Members of the public who refill LPG cylinders using Autogas refuelling equipment not only create a serious risk to their own safety and the safety of others, but are also contravening UK Health and Safety Regulations, Weights and Measures Regulations and Consumer Safety legislation. These Regulations impose important legal duties on the site operator to ensure the safety of both their employees and members of the public. In the event of an accident as a result of this type of activity, the site operator could be liable to prosecution. Calor is therefore urging Autogas refuelling site operators to be vigilant and take appropriate action to prevent the unlawful and potentially dangerous re-filling cylinders in this manner.'

https://www.calor.co.uk/news/calor-...of-lpg-cylinders-at-autogas-refuelling-sites/

I know that people get away with it but it is technically illegal, as the link says. In Italy and Spain, where forecourt attendants are more common than in UK, they even look askance at bottles installed in motorhomes and may take some persuasion to fill them.

Calor would say that wouldn't they?
H&S regs are open to interpretation.

 

[charles_reed]

Since this thread start, 10 years ago, there have been increasingly severe restrictions in Europe as well as the UK.
The only places I know where you might , without let or hindrance, refill your own LPG bottle are N Africa, Pantelleria, some of the Aegean islands and round Naples. (Though I'm pretty sure it's against Italian law.)
Fortunately most places I go, it's possible to get one's bottle discreetly refilled though, apropos of Vyv's remark, never in Lakki...
Cost €6 - 8 for a Gaz 907 size. Note REFILL not EXCHANGE.

 

[myquest]

Calor would say that wouldn't they?
Of course they would. Having read the link to Calor's news clip it lost any credibility for me when I read "Furthermore, commercial LPG is supplied in two forms – propane and butane – and filling a cylinder with the wrong type of LPG can lead to serious appliance malfunction and can cause safety devices to fail." My Calor gas supplier tells me that the only difference in the cylinders is the colour, proving the point by scraping off blue to reveal red and vice versa. Many of you will use one or the other on the same appliance depending on whether it is winter or not.

 

[owen-cox]

My personal experience with this is that I have used a fitting to fill propane in the UK and France but France is now very hot on the fact that if you have a fixed filer pipe you can fill it but if it is straight onto the bottle you cant. In the uk I have had varied answers but have never had a problem with a gaslow fixed filler pipe system anywhere. I think if I had to use gas for anything substantial on the boat I would fill a gaslow from a fixed filler in my camper van and then move it to the boat afterwards. The filler pipe is only on a flare fitting so is easy to remove.

 

[Monique]

socal.co.uk markets an adapter kit for worldwide travel. easily done except if you listen to some folks on here.

Go for it. Easy and safe if done intelligently.

 

[vyv_cox]

socal.co.uk markets an adapter kit for worldwide travel. easily done except if you listen to some folks on here.

Go for it. Easy and safe if done intelligently.

Good luck, especially in Italy.