Ferry nearly mows down yacht - whose fault?

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Over the last 55 years of playing about on the water I have been on every side of this argument from being the stupid and inexperienced dinghy sailor through to Captain and eventually Pilot standing on the bridge amazed at the pointless risking of life and his/her expensive craft by some buffoon more intent on proving some point regarding his perception of the Colregs or earning a few points in the latest racing series.

Nowadays I still observe the Colregs but with the proviso that life is too short to bother about close quarter situations and so keep clear of everyone.

At the end of the day, whatever the rights or wrongs of the case, it is small consolation knowing, as you are run down, that you believe yourself to be in the right.

Whatever happened to common sense and the instinct for self-preservation ?

Tom

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All gorn and laid to rest me old mate! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
well, that isnt actually what the signal means, is it?
However, I d agree that is exactly what is implied /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
And I have no idea why the sailor didnt clear well out of the way as an act of self preservation.
Still, strictly speaking-which I thought was Mike's point-why didnt the ferry make a course adjustment, at an early stage?
Mind you, thinking about it, if they did that for every sailing boat in the Solent, they d never reach Cowes /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
We don't have the full story: e.g. it's possible that the ferry would have avoided it by a wide margin, but the yacht tacked back again into it's path.
 
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5 blasts. Clear off, get out of my way, have you not seen me, you bloody idiot.

[/ QUOTE ] Interesting interpretation.

Thought it was more along the lines of "Your intentions are not clear to me. Clear off, get out of my way, have you not seen me, you bloody idiot". /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Being fairly new to motor boating, I am constantly amazed by the sailing boats (mostly small) that are always found tacking across channels or just in front of a passing MB.

A lot of them don't look in good control of their craft, but is their lack of skills or bloody mindidness that causes this type of behavior, I don't understand
 
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A lot of them don't look in good control of their craft,

[/ QUOTE ] Just cos you don't understand it don't make it wrong ....
 
I think most X boats are based in Chichester and all appear clueless on col regs, I bet he has never read this advice from QHM who basically covers the Solent.

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QHM says

<span style="color:blue"> Avoid sailing in the commercial shipping channels, especially in poor visibility. Obey Rule 9 of the Collision Regulations(ColRegs) for conduct in narrow channels by keeping to the starboard side of the channel and crossing only when this does not impede the passage of a large vessel that can safely navigate only within the narrow channel.

Do not underestimate the speed of ships. If your boat is slow, allow sufficient time to take effective evasive action in the vicinity of large ships.

Be visible. At night make sure your navigation lights can be seen. If you see the navigation lights of a vessel and you think you have not been seen, get out of the way. Use torches, search lights or a spotlight on sails, or fire a white flare to indicate your position. Carry a radar reflector high on your boat. Remember, from the bridge of a loaded container ship or large tanker, the captain or pilot will lose sight of you a third of a mile ahead, although you can see the ship at all times!

Be alert. Look around every so often, especially astern.

Keep watch at night. Even on a clear night you will have difficulty seeing a big ship approach. You might see it first as a black shadow against a background of shore lights, or as a growing shadow – at that point you are not far apart. Remember that your lights will not be easily spotted from the ship.

Know the visual & sound signals Stated in the ColRegs.

Keep your VHF R/T tuned to channel 11, when North of a line OSB to Gilkicker, to listen for vessel traffic information from QHM’s Harbour Control. In an emergency, if you believe you have not been seen or you re unsure of a ship’s intentions, call them on VHF Channels 11 or 16 then shift to a working frequency for intership safety messages.
</span>

I had to take avoiding action 3 times over the weekend when I was the stand on vessel, two sailing dinghies and one sailing cruiser.
They should have to pass an exam before they are allowed on the water.
Looking at the map alongside a chart and you can see a huge chunk of the solent that should be clear of sailing craft altogether, has anyone noticed where these areas of fewer sailing boats are ?
 
Good thread on this over in Scuttlebutt.

Lets be clear though as a raggie I also object to sailing boats with engines tacking or sailing up rivers. Others disagree with me and insist on their rights. I think they are inconsiderate and not in full control - at least under an engine you have some brakes!

WRT this incident I don't think we know the events that preceded it to make a proper judgement but the priniciples of the Col Regs can be distilled into a few statements which if everyone obeys incidents can be avoided.

1. The boat with the most abilty to get out of the way should do so. Hence most motor boats have a greater ability than a small and slow sailing dinghy.

2. This obligation infers exceptions to boats unable to get out of the way eg constrained by their draught or fishing etc.

3. Ignoring both 1 & 2 everyone has an obligation to aviod a collision.

With these 3 statements the Col Regs have a clarity that sets out what we should all do and finally what to do if it all goes wrong.

If we get into Bigger v Smaller we will need to take a tape measure to each boat before right of way can be established and commercial v Pleasure could also cause confusion. I agree that common sense dictates that a small dinghy should try to keep out of the way of bigger boats but without the Col Regs for guidance we could have collisions similar to the left/right shuffle that can occur betwen pedestrians on pavements.

Please be patient with us slow boats.

Edited there is now an eyewitness statement on Scuttlebutt. it appears that the ferry was going towards cowes but not in a channel and not restricted by its Draught. X boats maintained her course as stand on vessel in Col Regs. Ferry did give 3 blasts and went astern. Observer though Ferry could easily have altered course slightly. trust I have repeated original post correctly. I would comment that this action is unusual for Red Funnel and perhaps the Ferry was harrassed that Saturday to keep up schedule. Personally i have never needed to alter course for a Red Funnel ferry as I have found they ALWAYS steer to avoid slower boats. I have the greatest respect of their skippers who have a difficult job in very crowded waters.
 
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I think most X boats are based in Chichester and all appear clueless on col regs, I bet he has never read this advice from QHM who basically covers the Solent.

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Big fleets of X boats in Lymington, Portmouth and Cowes.

Given the meeting of an X boat and the red funnel Southampton to Cowes ferry, I rather suspect it was a Cowes boat.

Eyewitness statement on the S'but thread makes interesting reading btw....
 
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1. The boat with the most abilty to get out of the way should do so. Hence most motor boats have a greater ability than a small and slow sailing dinghy.

2. This obligation infers exceptions to boats unable to get out of the way eg constrained by their draught or fishing etc.



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Unfortunately your second point gets overlooked , having recently moved away from sail to power I do not agree modern sailing boats are less manoeuvrable than power, sailing crews are far better prepared for a quick tack.

The skipper on the bridge of his power boat has no idea where the crew are and if they are sat down and ready for stern propulsion to be applied.
He knows that stern propulsion will knock crew off their feet causing injury and possibly overboard.

The sailing boat should be aware where channels are even if not buoyed and should keep clear of the channels choosing a safe time to cross at right angles if he has to.

At the weekend a boat tacked in front of me (in a channel 10m wide), he was so close I stole all his wind leaving him dead in front of me.

At a quick glance of the Ferry shot , I assume X boat also sailed so close he lost his wind , his tack would then be delayed while he found his new wind direction and off he tried to scuttle out the way, just in the nick of time.
 
As the owner of a 32' Motor Cruiser I know that in the Solent I am either faster, or smaller, than pretty much anyone else, so I make every effort to get out of the way of others. Even when I'm the stand on vessel I am ready to instantly stop or change course if required, and not just at the last minute. Usually an early and obvious deviation in course suffices to let all parties know what's going on.

The one that really annoys me is yotties who pootle up the Hamble or into Portsmouth at about 2 knots. It's a bit like drivers doing 20 in a 30 zone. I have good steerage at 4 knots, which is the lowest speed limit I've seen, but very little at 2 knots, which makes getting into Portsmouth interesting sometimes!!
 
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he was so close I stole all his wind leaving him dead in front of me.

[/ QUOTE ]ooo ... we'll have you up for ragslaughter on that admission!! Did you run him down too? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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1. The boat with the most abilty to get out of the way should do so. Hence most motor boats have a greater ability than a small and slow sailing dinghy.

2. This obligation infers exceptions to boats unable to get out of the way eg constrained by their draught or fishing etc.



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Unfortunately your second point gets overlooked , having recently moved away from sail to power I do not agree modern sailing boats are less manoeuvrable than power, sailing crews are far better prepared for a quick tack.

The skipper on the bridge of his power boat has no idea where the crew are and if they are sat down and ready for stern propulsion to be applied.
He knows that stern propulsion will knock crew off their feet causing injury and possibly overboard.

The sailing boat should be aware where channels are even if not buoyed and should keep clear of the channels choosing a safe time to cross at right angles if he has to.

At the weekend a boat tacked in front of me (in a channel 10m wide), he was so close I stole all his wind leaving him dead in front of me.

At a quick glance of the Ferry shot , I assume X boat also sailed so close he lost his wind , his tack would then be delayed while he found his new wind direction and off he tried to scuttle out the way, just in the nick of time.

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I have no wish to get into a raggie/mobo fight, or to become imbroiled in a "discussion" with someone who has a notoriously iffy understanding of Colregs, but I would like to point out that a good part of the quoted text is utter rubbish. Specifically the bit about sailing boats being more manouverable.

This is a dangerous thing to suggest, mainly because that statement requires a massive generalisation. SOME sailing boats might be more manouverable than your boat DAKA, but not very many. And even then there is a big difference in manouverability depending on conditions. And if you don't sail you'll struggle to predict when they are most, and when least manouverable.

I could go on about the rubbish written about the ferry stealing the X boat's wind, but I suspect most people have by now realised that was "wishful thinking" on Pete's part.
 
I saw the incident from the comfort of the shore. In my opinion, whatever ColRegs apply is irrelevent - when does common sense prevail! The X boat was foolish to remain on his tack passing so closely infront of such a large vessel that is difficult to manouvre. The ferry was on approach to the mouth of the Medina river with not much room for manouvre on either side of the channel. The only option the ferry had was to slam engines in reverse and hope it slowed down enough to allow the X boat to pass in front. The ferry had given numerous blasts of it's horn to alert the X boat of the potential danger. There is a fine line between knowledge/arrogance/stupidity/death wish!!


(ps - posted this on Scuttlebutt so pls excuse repetition!)
 
I am happy to listen to your views, I am really interested in your views on this,

I am surprised at your response that I find boarder line abrasive.



Now I may have made a mistake and it is only my opinion anyway but even if you are not a sailor and just someone who is looking for a sheltered place to set up a BBQ, under the green ramp looks sheltered to me, that also looks like the X boat has just sailed from under it too !

Not trying to argue , just explained how I made my mistake.
all the best

Pete
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REDFUNNELCLOSEUP.jpg
 
Ok, I'll explain.

Upwind speed of an X boat in "good" conditions - about 4.5 knots.

Speed of ferry - about 15 knots.

Angle between course of x and course of ferry looks about 45 degrees to me. Which would tie in with the North/South course of the ferry and the west/ south-westerly wind over the weekend.

So the wind is coming about 90 degrees relative to the ferry. And since the X is in front of it, and has been moving considerably slower than the ferry, never was sheltered by it.

In short when the X was in the water now sheltered by the ferry, the ferry wasn't there.

My reply was meant to be abrasive, as I consider spreading unwise if not downright wrong theories as to why sailing boats should get out of the way of boats burdened under colregs dangerous.

If anyone actually listened to your stuff, then took a motorboat out into the Solent they could be very dangerous.
 
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Come on they are up to 80 on the otherside.......

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In my opinion the difference is power boaters witness this sort of behaviour each and every weekend in the Solent and Poole.( I saw three incidents over last weekend)

The only collision regulation they wish to selectively share is power gives way to sail.

Now we all know it is about as ridiculous as the high way codes equally dated Motor gives way to Horse and we accept it is an obsolete bit of guidance .

Over on scuttleburks they realise the more of these dangerous events caught on camera the closer they get to loosing their perceived right to carry on sailing into dangerous situations.
 
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