Ferry nearly mows down yacht - whose fault?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted User YDKXO
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Hear hear Morgana.

The Solent, The Hamble and the Medina etc definitely contain nuts, both sail, power, pwc's and wafi's etc. But is it really any different to any other popular boating location?
Yes it is busy, but what would happen if everyone took a similar stance when using the motorway or road with such relished abandon to any other users? eg a Lorry drivers view "I'm in an artic 16 wheeler so tough on the occupants of that corsa! Corsa driver!" Yes darling he is big but tell the kids to be quiet while I undertake him so we don't miss the junction!"
Some people make mistakes, some are pompous arses that decide they know best and hold thier course even if it risks oblivion.
Do any of us really want to be like that whether sailor or motor boater?
It has been said elsewhere, but let us not forget we are on the water to enjoy ourselves and to behave responsibly to the best of our ability. Good grace and manners are never out of place in keeping us all safe never mind who has priority over what.
Take my own recent example of stupidity. leaving a really nice anchorage at the weekend, I neglected to lower my black ball.
How do you interpret that, at anchor doing 24 knots?

Cheers
MO
 
Unless the ferry was outside the approach fairway then the ferry was the stand on boat.
This is a duplicate of the reply I did on scuttleburks and is a copy of the local Cowes bylaw

[ QUOTE ]
[
He wasn't in the Southampton Water or the fairway, he was in Cowes Roads approaching Cowes, well outside of the area of concern and not within QHM's jurisdiction either.



[/ QUOTE ]

Cowes fairway starts in a line between Prince consort and Gurard.
Dont you guys have charts , you dont even need to be literate to read a purple coloured line ! Southampton juristriction ends at the same place.
(there is a theroretical gap between the two of 20 m or less, you will have seen many boats on the plane on this exact track.)

[ QUOTE ]


So the ferry was officially the stand-on vessel then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he was.

QHM, Southampton water and cowes ALL have the same regulations...........is that strange, of course not the whole world has similar regulations designed so all mariners know what to expect.

it is only a few dummies on here who believe they can sail into a power boat navigating a channel or fairway.

Cowes fairway starts at the end of southampton water/end of QHM and starts near the chain ferry.

<span style="color:blue"> NAVIGATING IN FAIRWAY
11.(a) The Master of a small vessel which is not confined to a fairway shall not
intentionally make use of the fairway so as to cause obstruction to other vessels
which can navigate only within the fairway.
(b) The Master of a vessel crossing a fairway or of a vessel turning shall so navigate
as not intentionally to cause obstruction to any other vessel.
THE SCHEDULE
The Limits of Cowes Harbour and Roads
From a public house called “The Folly" (on the eastern bank of the River Medina) due
west to the western bank of the said river thence along the line of high water mark down
the western bank of the River Medina and along the Harbour to Cowes Castle thence
following the line of high water mark along the coast to Egypt Point thence to position
Latitude 500 46'16" 9 N. Longitude 010 18'06" W. thence to Prince Consort Shoal Buoy
thence to position Latitude 500 46'06" N. Longitude 010 16'31" W. thence in a southerly
direction to the shore at the point nearest to the said last mentioned position and thence
along the line of high water mark on the eastern bank of the River Medina and along the
Harbour to the said public house called "The Folly".
So much of the area comprised within the said limits as lies to the southward of a
straight line drawn from the outer extremity of Cowes Castle to high water mark at the
outer extremity of Old Castle Point East Cowes shall be called the Harbour of Cowes
and the remainder of such area shall be called Cowes Roads



</span>

All here in B&W
http://www.cowes.co.uk/d/Harbour%20Byelaws.pdf

Try not to get confused with the term 'main' which is absent from the above bye law ! ( if anyone actually bothers to read the regulations )
The regulations state the ferry is obliged to navigate only within the fairway, even if depth of water allows him to navigate outside the fairway he is not permitted to do so.
 
Thanks for the many very interesting replies. FWIW, I don't agree with the suggestion that somehow the yottie should have been sensible and given way to the ferry simply because it was much larger than it. IMHO, the Col Regs are not open to intepretation in this way. Nowhere in the Col Regs does it say that might is right. Furthermore, without knowing exactly where this incident took place and looking at the photos, I see no evidence that it took place in a narrow channel so, IMHO, the Cowes HM is a bit previous in citing narrow channels
It seems to me that the ferry skipper was a bit pissed off about having to respect the Col Regs with regard to this small yacht and simply tried to bully him out of the way. It also seems to me that in a crowded piece of water like the Solent, there should be some hard and fast rules regarding ferries. If they are to have right of way, then there should be local regulations requiring smaller boats to keep out of their way at all times. Clearly, the Col Regs are sometimes not prescriptive enough for every situation
All IMHO and happy to be flamed
 
[ QUOTE ]
...This is a duplicate of the reply I did on scuttleburks...

[/ QUOTE ]
And my reply:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11.(a) The Master of a small vessel which is not confined to a fairway shall not
intentionally make use of the fairway so as to cause obstruction to other vessels
which can navigate only within the fairway.
(b) The Master of a vessel crossing a fairway or of a vessel turning shall so navigate
as not intentionally to cause obstruction to any other vessel.


I read that extract from Cowes HM as saying the X boat should have kept out the way as common sense also dictates.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You read it wrong, the Red Funnel ferry wasn't in the fairway at the time of the incident. Even if it was, as you wrongly claim, at that point of the crossing the ferry will be 400 or 500 hundred yards east or west depending on the tide so it clearly cannot only navigate in the fairway. The X boat wasn't crossing the fairway, it is open water - the "Fairway Approaches" in "Cowes Roads" - at that point.

The fairway starts between number one & two buoys despite your "purple lines" which is where the speed limit also starts. There is no imaginary 20m gap where boats can go through on the plane. You are confusing Cowes Harbour, Cowes Roads, the Fairway and Fairway Approaches which are all seperately defined.
 
You may or may not be right on how the regs were intended to be read , they have been amended over many years.
You are getting misled by the term 'main' fairway as apposed to fairway as appears in the regulations.

As such to follow the regs as they are written i am right.

All of which is irrelevant as we know a judge would simply say 50% 50% blame

they both have a duty to avoid a collision but technically the ferry was stand on.

yes there may have been room for him to give way within the fairway which would have been sensible but the bylaws do not expect him to do so..
 
No, you are misleading by using "Fairway" instead of "Fairway Approaches" which is where it actually happened. No mention of the word "main". I don't think the same judge would agree your interpretation was right - you need to go beyond the Schedule to Interpretation, the byelaws do it for you.

The ferry wasn't stand on in these circumstances and even if it happened in the fairway there is no mention in the bye laws of a vessel that can only navigate in the fairway being stand on, a term generally only used in col regs, just that vessels should not "cause obstruction" to such a vessel.
 
Somewhere in my mind, OK there is not too much of that? is that:

A vessel under 7m shall not impede......

I maybe, but am I wrong?
 
Are you thinking of Rule 9b:

"A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway".

7 metres comes up in the rules regarding lights.
 
This discussion about the By Laws is completely irrelevant. Most people who have expressed an opinion here have done so on the basis of ONE photograph from ONE perspective, some unattributed "witness" statements and a huge helping of imagination.

Until the outcome of the Harbour Master's enquiry is published, everything on here apart from two or three who saw part of the incident is pure speculation. Even worse some of those with very vivid imaginations who were nowhere near the incident distort what little is known to fit their own peculiar (in the literal sense) view of the world.

Would not want such people on my side as a witness in a court of law!
 
[ QUOTE ]
This discussion about the By Laws is completely irrelevant...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree. It is the byelaws that define the extent of the fairway and probably the most significant factor in this whole debate is whether the incident happened in the fairway or not.
 
lmao..... Power gives way to sail, however a train driver will also try to stop if an idiot is playing on the tracks. Sail boat users should be more considerate. Maybe this fagg*t in the sail boat would prefer the RNLI to sent out a crew for him in a sail boat????
 
The point I am making is that although the position may well become relevant, at this point in time there are only the one photograph and unattributed witness statements including yours. From this people are using their "imagination", often prejudiced by their own view of the world to apportion blame.

When the "truth" comes out many commentators will have to eat humble pie - although of course others may be proved correct in their assessment.
 
What amazes me is that so many that should know better are sticking their reputations on the line.

You make a good point, using me as an example I feel the X boat skipper was a real plonker, sailing into a dangerous situation.

I have read the regulations in a way that backs up my conclusion.

Some sailors have read the regulations in a way as to support their conclusion.

If I am wrong it doesnt matter, I will be just labelled a troll and no one cares.

If so called sailing instructors * are wrong then it brings to light an incredibly dangerous situation in that kids have been taught to stand on when they shouldnt.

* sailing instructors used very loosely as club members who teach young kids to sail through Chichester Harbour into motor boats who grow up to do the same to ships in channels.
 
What amazes me is that so many whether they be sailing instructors, MOBOers or whatever can make so much out of one picture!

Quite happy with a comment such as "Wow, that looks close. Could be a close quarters incident. Will be interesting to see what happens if there is an investigation."

You cannot at this point say which regulations apply because the photo does not show exactly where the incident occured. You cannot say that the X boat helm is a plonker because you don't know whether there was any real danger of a collision. You can't say whether the ferry captain could have taken avoiding action, again because you don't know exactly where it took place, nor what other vessels were in the vicinity that might have constrained his options.

I could go on, but I hope you get the drift.
 
/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The x boat skipper will no doubt be using similar arguments in order to change the minds of red funnel and Cowes HM who both have issued statements similar to mine.

Yes some on scuttleburks keep going off on arguments and wind veer but this does not affect my conclusion


The Solent is not open waters, it is basically a series of connected fairways and channels.

The ferry was obliged to navigate within the fairway which is clearly marked on the admiralty charts.

I have made an assumption that the ferry was where he should have been, that is in the area marked on the chart as 'fairway' then

The ferry was the stand on vessel.
 
Just because their statements bear some similarity to your guesses does not make them right. Only an independent investigation can draw any definitive conclusion.
 
I feel misquoted.

I was trying to say

Many are putting their reputations on the line as they should know, in particular the ones who sail in the solent on a regular basis and should know.

I am expressing how I feel about this situation and how I would react in this situation, everyone knows I dont sail x boats off cowes, I dont captain ferries either so my opinions dont matter do they, I dont have a reputation on the line !

All I am saying is that I would not stand on.

Nothing that I have read on scuttleburks has so far changed my mind on that.


I dont really think this is even a sail/power issue.

If I came across the ferry's starboard side in my power boat I would not stand on, all the arguments on scuttleburks so far would indicate that I am wrong and I should plough into the starboard side of the ferry @ 25 knots
 
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