Fatal RIB crash. Some questions.

[Peppermint]

PBO for July. "The MCA plans to prosecute the skipper of a RIB which crashed into a 20 tonne mooring buoy at night last year-even though the mark was unlit".

"The buoy was taken away and repainted but is now back in place unlit - a fact which has surprised some boaters".

They've found a fisherman who thinks they should be lit, the Hamble Lifeboat guy thinks not.

So it's dark, the chart shows big solid things around you, you are outside a well lit channel. How fast would you be going?

Do you guys think that every hazard should be lit?

Are you surprised that the buoy has been replaced?

 

[jimi]

Two angles on this .. if its the big black buoys in Soton Water then they should be lit.

That said a skipper should be aware of their presence and is negligent in hitting them, criminally so at that speed. IMHO ... mind you I've bashed things in broad daylight ;-(

 

[Twister_Ken]

I know these buoys well off Netley. There are more off Hythe. They've been there a long time, they're on the charts, and they're big enough to see against background light and even in ambient light except on the very darkest night. They're OK as they are.

Maybe some unlit hazards deserve to be lit, but not these.

'Nother question - how many people each year manage to miss these buoys?

 

[Birdseye]

In which case, what are the criteria for deciding what is lit and what isnt? Obviously not the possibility of impact so what else?

 

[Twister_Ken]

>In which case, what are the criteria for deciding what is lit and what isnt? Obviously not the possibility of impact so what else? <

Probably it's a question of cost vs benefit, like everything else.

A more sensible answer would be how avoidable they are. In this case if you want to go up Soton Water at night you can do it safely by stilcking just outside the line of the main shipping channel buoys and there's no need to go near these mooring buoys.

In other cases it may be that unlit hazards are on or much closer to the only practicable night time route, in which case they should be lit, if whoever rules over them has got enough 50p pieces for the meter.

 

[jimi]

Disagree, I know the water very well, have good night vision and have sailed there frequently at night, they are difficult to see. I tend to go up the west side of Soton Water for that very reason or have the radar on to spot them if tacking up. They really ought to be lit cos if they are whacked, then due to their size and shape you'll sink

 

[landaftaf]

best form of defense is attack - so blame the other party as presumably soton hbr authority have done - but I have not been following the actual nittygritties

however if the unlit object can be deemed an unlit navigational hazard (like unlit oil rig platforms in the north sea which are (or were) deemed a hazard to navigation) then someone could be accused of being guilty of causing a danger to navigation and bear the consequences - legal advice needed there.

but I do sense a possible link could be made by the defence between recent posts on here proclaiming 'missing' other boats by 15 feet at 25 kts is perfectly acceptable, some times even less - indeed it seems by the postings it is commonplace

what do you think ?

 

[Joe_Cole]

The buoys are marked on the charts, and the rib driver has killed somebody.

Of course he should be prosecuted. If he has a defence then he can present it at the appropriate time.

 

[l'escargot]

If you can't see where you are going you shouldn't go fast - it's a bit like driving down a country road with your lights off, you wouldn't do it.
There are so many things lit up now that people don't seem to take into account the possibility of something being unlit - there aren't lights on tree stumps and containers.

 

[[2068]]

How about if you have radar / GPS plotter ?

Does that count as "seeing" ?

dv.

 

[l'escargot]

Can they see semi submerged objects and have you got them all plotted into your GPS?

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]
the rib driver has killed somebody.

Of course he should be prosecuted. If he has a defence then he can present it at the appropriate time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody was actually killed in the incident - 3 seriously injured yes, but not killed. I was around the Hamble the morning after, at that time it was rumoured that 2 had been killed. This turned out to be just that, a rumour.

 

[Joe_Cole]

On reading the article in PBO again, you are right. I was thrown by the word "fatal" in the earlier posting! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

According to PBO several passengers were injured, one being blinded in one eye. I still think that it's right that the driver is prosecuted; it looks like reckless driving.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Absolutely agree...

In limited visibility, in a busy area, you slow down. Period.

Too many kids getting killed on the roads by stupidity mixed with fast and powerful cars..... best it doesn't migrate onto the water for all our sakes.

 

[davidfox]

I hit great big yellow metal buoy in between gosport and IOW a couple of years ago at 2am on pitch black night, crew below stowing gear, hatch open, light on below ,night vision shot, great big bong as we hit it with the bow roller and this thing the size of a fiat 500 rolled past nearly s..t myself only doing 5 knots at time, it can happen. I was looking honest

 

[Solitaire]

Ah, I don't disagree with you on the prosecution front at all. The issue I think also revolves around the speed at which the incident took place given the night situation - it was very, very excessive!!! The driver was, I am led to believe, commercially endorsed!

 

[nicho]

...and the rumour was, several others on the boat were begging him to slow down......

 

[castaway]

I'm really curious as to what speed motor boaters think is reasonable at night? To be honest I find that from within my wheelhouse with the odd bit of reflected light I'm nearly blind, and at 3 or 4 kts in coastal waters that feels more than enough, maybe a bit more in the open sea.

However talking to a guy I know with a small Sunseeker he appeared to think that to go down the Solent at 20kt in the dark was a pretty reasonable thing to do!

Bloody frightening, mind you I sat petrified in a big RIB years ago in water I knew was getting shallow whilst the 'driver' was doing 30+kts with no depth sounder or anyway of knowing that there was no going to be bit of hard stuff just below the surface a few meters in front. You could see his reasoning "Well we're not near a beach so its gotta be deep"

If this guy did have a commercial endorsement then I really feel criminal action is justified, if he is just another idiot with more boat than sense then its most likely just another nail in the coffin of the freedom of the vast majority of us.

Regds Nick

 

[Solitaire]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really curious as to what speed motor boaters think is reasonable at night?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reasonable speed is that which is deemed safe given the conditions at the time. There is no definative answer. Safe speed is the overiding factor. I have travelled down the Solent at 20 knots, but also at 5 knots in a powerboat.

 

[TonyD]

Maybe mobos should be fitted with headlights /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

In fact why not go the whole hog - fog lights & direction indicators as well /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Tony