Fatal RIB crash. Some questions.

reasonable speed is not defined and to my knowledge not a technical description of going either too fast, just right or too slow

safe speed is deliberatly not defined in the col regs but a staff answer in an oral exam would be - in laymans terms ....... it is a speed which enables the mariner to react in time to any circumstance considering the prevailing conditions
 
As one, a mobo'er, I would suggest that there is no one answer.
Without question there are different hazards in different waterborne environments, some of which it really doesn't matter whether it's day or night and some that under certain reduced light conditions show up better - pot buoys on a calm moonlit night for example.
Equally, as hinted at in this post earlier, pitch black can be better than a light busy area such as the solent. Thus running from Calshot to Cowes is a lot more potentially hazadous than the latter stages of the run to Yarmouth.

Instruments are great but few leisure sailors practice sufficiently with them to be able to sense when something is wrong/potentially wrong sufficently to stop/slow right down and check in time. The same thing applies to lights and, in my opinion, to much detail is put into the theory based training about the many different types of lights and not enough into extremely basic ingrained lessons eg if it's a fixed red, green or white light it's not going to be on your plotter 'cos it's a vessel of some sort. If it's flashing it's a navigation mark and should be on the plotter. Starting instantly from that you can decide what you need to consider as you are working out the detail - fixed red keep clear, fixed green etc
Put into practice I am happy to travel at speed when I have enough information, can compute it all and it does compute! If I have learnt one lesson it's that I should slow right down imediately something doesn't compute. For this reason it goes without saying that alcohol (even a couple of drinks), speed and instruments don't mix - you just can't make sense of all the information fast enough and would be stopping every couple of minutes to work it all out anywhere but offshore.
How fast is just a product of all the above factors - I certainly wouldn't worry about a trip I knew (Yarmouth to Poole say) at around 25 knots if the sea was flat calm and I could see any large wakes!) 17knots if it was so dark I was going to handle any wake from feel - both the above assuming, as I do from habit, that I had plotted a pot free corridor on the way over earlier in the day/weekend. In an open boat (I am behind a glass screen and hard top) where you are using available light rather than just instruments, I was happy to run faster but I think the story that prompted this thread gives us a good lesson - know whether you are using the mk1 eyeball or instruments. If you start to rely totally on the eyeball you will miss the black cat in the coal cellar but believe that you will see it - as here.
Armed with a dashboard of radar, 2 x plotters and sonars I don't think this is any more dangerous from a visibility perspective than a yacht travelling at 10 knots with a bit of spray and rain having to consider navigation, comfort etc.
 
[ QUOTE ]
reasonable speed is not defined and to my knowledge not a technical description of going either too fast, just right or too slow

safe speed is deliberatly not defined in the col regs but a staff answer in an oral exam would be - in laymans terms ....... it is a speed which enables the mariner to react in time to any circumstance considering the prevailing conditions

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read my post, you'll see I make reference to Safe speed as being the main criteria and I don't define what that is. It is all prevailing conditions taken into account at the time which will enable a definition of "Safe speed"
 
I always get flack when I post like this, so maybe I should learn better! Came back from Studland to Lymington in a thunder and lightening storm that came out of nowhere (It was a great beach barbeque while it lasted!)

The trip back was horrendous. Really horrid, had my gps and handheld in cuddy, and taking seas on the chine and slamming a lot, even at low speed. A quick 40 minute trip in my powerboat was down to 5knts and sailing boat type voyage plans for most of the way, though could power on and plane and cruise for bits.

Suddenly, as I came into lee of Needles and IoW, as I came near to Hurst via N Channel, everything went amazingly calm, and water was like a mirror. It was just at that last 10 minutes before it went pitch dark, and with lightning hitting Needles and IoW, and with street lights reflected off low cloud from Iow Yarmouth etc) and Mainland - Keyhaven, Lymington, etc, on mirror like sea, you could see anything in the water up to a mile or more ahead.

Apart from thunder over IoW, all I could hear was deep rumble of engine, and swish of water from hull. I opened up and did over 40+knts from Hurst to Lymington start platform, then slowed into restricted zone.

No problem doing that speed in mirror like water with enough reflected light off water to see even a little buoy half submerged - it was just the light conditions and glass like surface at the time.

Would never do that speed normally in the dark, it was a one off, but wonderful end to a taxing journey. Normally keep down to safe speed, same as I'd do when driving.
 
No, but I probably wouldn't be able to see them during daylight hours either, or at least, not early enough to avoid them at higher speeds.

Several times, I have returned in darkness, and if it's a clear night, and I'm in familiar waters (especially if retracing an earlier outbound route), then I would be happy to plane at 17/18kts while everything "computes", slowing down if it didn't. The main hazard is unlit pot markers, which are rarely fatal.

dv.
 
the cost of lighting one is minimal ........... a thousanth of the port dues for a large tanker visiting fawley
 
The only thing that sailing boats, motorboaters, ribs, fishing boats jet-ski's etc share in common is the medium that the sport is caried out in.

You could almost equate sailing with walking or cycling, and power-boating with rallying or driving fast cars where the medium is dry land. The aspirations and needs of the people who undertake the sport are significantly different.

It seems to me that the participants of a number of the boating categories mentioned above require an element of speed to get their enjoyment from their sport. I think it is a proven fact that speed kills, in any medium. I would have thought that as the speed increases then caution and vigilance must be increased as well.

I personally cannot understand any body who drives at speed in any medium, and especially where vision is limited, and there is the slightest risk. The risk could be reduced by slowing down. The requirement is to balance the risk with the enjoyment achieved from the sport. Did this driver do this ?

PK.
 
[quoteA more sensible answer would be how avoidable they are. In this case if you want to go up Soton Water at night you can do it safely by stilcking just outside the line of the main shipping channel buoys and there's no need to go near these mooring buoys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sveral things

1) You've obviously not been in Soton water when there's a dredger, Aurora. a fast cat and two of the big slow ferries all concurrent ...
2) These large things are very near the channel
3) The one shaped like a large drain plug is virtually invisible even at dusk
4) Its surprising how often one has to tack or beat up Soton Water
5)IMHO every bouy in congested wates (including racing marks) ought to be lit, unlit ones in such waters are a hazard.
 
Agree with Jimi on the lighting. The Thames in London is also dotted with unlit buoys in the bits you might use to avoid a night time trip boat full of loud music and nasty lager. SWMBO has much better eyesight than I do, especially at night. She is happy to cruise at 8+ knots, I cower at enough speed for steerage way.
 
It's also the case that watercraft require an element of speed to get anywhere within a reasonable timeframe.

If you didn't already know about the track record of commercial aviation, and I gave you the option of travelling in pitch darkness in an alloy tube travelling at 30,000 feet doing 500mph, how convinced would you be by my arguments about radar, controlled airspace, and trained (auto?)pilots ?

Surely a train that currently barrels along at 110mph at night would be much safer if it stuck to 20mph, but I don't see people petitioning train companies or any "Think, Kill Your Speed" signs along the Havant to Waterloo line. Instead there are little signs that say "110" every now and again, and route instructions for the driver that say "you really should be doing well over 100mph on this bit".

dv.
 
>>It's also the case that watercraft require an element of speed to get anywhere within a reasonable timeframe.

Correct and the word is "reasonable" What is reasonable when there is no attempt or commitment from anybody to specifically make the area you are travelling in free from obstructions. Therefore you are entirely reliant on your own abilities and capabilities.

In both of the other cases that you quote i.e. trains and aircraft there are specific attempts at assessing and mitigating the risks associated with travelling at the chosen speeds. I don't think all the risks are nescessarily assessed and managed when some people take to the water. High speeds mean that any subsequent accidents cause more damage and risk greater injury.
 
Doesn't excuse anyone from keeping a good visual lookout, even in fog. The whole bit about the definition of a "safe speed" makes it clear that we have the responsibility to consider visibility, traffic, obstructions and all the rest.
 
Who's talking about Fog ?

I'm talking about planing speeds at night, say 17-18kts, where you have your night vision, gps plotter, and you know the area you are in.

I'm fairly confident I can change course to avoid a small obstacle at that speed, and have had to do that a few times to avoid pot markers that have appeared out of the gloom - it doesn't take much of a twiddle on the helm or very long to move one boat width port or stbd at planing speeds.

The bigger stuff is reasonably well charted, sometimes lit, and I would plot a course that went nowhere near this stuff, apart from the channel markers at either end. I'm not saying this is infallible, and in Southampton water it might well be a lot harder.

Anyway, haven't sunk so far, so it must be safe /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

dv.
 
I was at anchor in osborne bay that night and when the festivities finished there were lit and unlit ribs going through and skirting the anchorage at 20Kts. Of course, nothing can go wrong except perhaps lapse in concentration, steering failure, heart attack etc. etc .........
 
as you rightly say etc etc

these night time festivities are unfortunately the worst situations for many reasons = not least of which are the fact that people are often out in the dark, possibly slightly different area to their usual spots and have people on board to impress (and the fireworks aren't enough?).

fast powered craft are also the least likely to 'practice' in the dark simply because they can normally avoid it - and do! Many here who anchor up in Osborne, Alum, Studland Bays etc will see the mad rush on a Sat night as everyone heads home to avoid the dark!
 
mmm - you omitted the matter of being distracted, showing off, overestimating your skills because of excess alchol, boat rage, in a hurry cos you are late and just plain being an arse ......
 
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