Falling overboard & Safety Harness

[Cobra25]

Reading the Glenans Sailing Manual - Lifelines - thye recommend the lifeline be attached to the harness at the nape of the neck (properly with a clip). Reason: If you fall over, you will be towed on your back- thus keeping your face out of the water. So is the generally accepted way of clipping on because it feels right or is it like aircraft seats - they face forward because that's the way people like to travel even though more people would survive a crash if they faced backwards. The planes used by the Forces had rearward facing seats - don't know about now.
Any one have any thoughts or info on nape of the neck attachment or experiences of being dragged after falling overboard

 

[srm]

Hi,

The only experience I have of someone being dragged overboard was attending the funeral of a friend who had died while being towed in his harness alongside his own boat. His wife was waiting for the lifeboat that went out to look for him. I don't think that a neck or chest attachment point would have made any difference to the result in those circumstances.

That reinforced my philosophy that you have left everything far too late if you, or a crew, fall in the water. I now rig jackstays so that the safety line is pulling tight as I reach the guardrails or pulpit. Inconvenient at times, but if the weather requires safety harnessess so be it.

Might not suit the racing fraternity, but as a cruising man and ex charter skipper / YM Instructor sailing in cold waters I have always put all the emphasis on a safety harness system that will keep the crew onboard. Lifejackets are only of use for dinghy work or when transfering between vessels. Wearing them on deck creates a very false sense of security.

As a charter skipper making overnight offshore passages my safety briefing included the fact that if anyone went over the side without their harness clipped on they were unlikely to be picked up while still alive.

My charter yacht also had hip high guard rails strong enough to be jumped on from a quay rather than the standard trip wire perimiter found on most production boats. People are the same height and weight whatever the size of your boat so if you are going to have a guard rail it must be both big and strong enough to do the job.

 

[webcraft]

I don't see how you could attach a harness at the nape of your neck - would you wear a collar?? (You must be choking!) Even if it was possible it would get in the way all the time. Haven't read Glenans - is there a diagram? Sounds like it was written by a man who has never actually used a harness while working on deck in rough conditions.

It depends on the sized of your boat / length of harness tether, but on our boat if I have to do any deck work in bad weather I prefer to reclip my harness on the windward (uphill) side so it is almost impossible for me to end up in the water. If reefing at the mast I sometimes put my tether round the mast itself, which should also keep me on board whatever happens. Main danger is on the foredeck, so if working here you can try to clip on further back. You should always be near the full extent of your tether, not with lots of slack that will let you go over/through the guardrails.

Of course, this involves unclipping and reclipping, so this is probably where a two-tailed tether comes in handy, although I have always thought it would just be another thing to catch and get in the way. Does anyone use a double harness tether?

Obviously the main thing is to avoid going in the water . . . that is what harnesses are for, but the tragic event referred to above suggests that all crew members should be briefed on how to bring the boat to a fairly immediate stop if the worst happens.

- Nick

 

[capt_courageous]

Many years ago a friend's wife also drowned after falling overboard while underway. She too was wearing a life line and it effectively killed her. I then tried a few experiments being towed on a life line behind our boat. At any noticeable boat speed it was terrifying. I was swamped by my own bow wave in seconds. I will now never wear a life line which is long enough to let me to fall into the sea. As the previous post says by the time you have fallen in it is to late.

 

[alant]

Re: Falling overboard & Safety Harness

<rather than the standard trip wire perimiter found on most production boats>
Surely, these are only for draping towels/marking territory when rafted & specially designed at knee jerk level to tickle the unwary, or crutch level when repairing onboard after a run ashore.
Not forgetting being used as drying racks for those attractive nets that seem to decorate some boats.
These shortcomings a mandatory inclusion in any safety brief.

 

[Anthony]

Re: Falling overboard &amp; Safety Harness

>this is probably where a two-tailed tether comes in handy, although I have
>always thought it would just be another thing to catch and get in the way. Does
>anyone use a double harness tether?

Yes I do, and I wouldnt want to use a single one again for two reasons:

1) When moving around you can always be clipped on with one of them, whilst transferring the other one from jackstay to cockpit point etc

2) When at the mast or foredeck working, you can use the shorter harness to clip on to a point close by meaning that you could not reach the water.

Maybe I am missing somthing, in which case please educate me, but I dont see why anybody would only use a single harness, at least with a double its there if you want it.

Anthony

 

[webcraft]

Re: Falling overboard &amp; Safety Harness

A single harness tends to snag on things as it is . . . an extra 'tail' is just something else to catch up on sticky-out bits.

But I guess you get used to it and just keep it clipped onto the harness D-ring when not deployed.

- Nick

 

[Colvic Watson]

Re: Falling overboard &amp; Safety Harness

Dumb question of the day - is a jackstay a line running from cockpit to pulpit on which one can attach a lifeline? If so, how does one safely fix it to the boat so it is not ripped out by a snatch load when falling? What is the best material - webbing or rope? How does one attach it to these points withour resorting to a knot, which would weaken it severly?

 

[graham]

Re: Falling overboard &amp; Safety Harness

No such thing as a dumb question.You may get some dumb answers though!

Basically it is usually either a wire rope or webbing strap that runs the lenghth of the deck port and starboard..so you clip your harness strop to it before leaving the cockpit then can go all the way forward without unclipping.

Wire rope is better IMHO as it doesnt degrade in sunlight as a web strap will.Downside of a wire rope is that it can roll underfoot causing you to fall if you step on it.

you can buy a kit from chandlers or get them made up by any decent sailmaker/rigger.If practical they are better as far inboard as possible even down the centerline and must have very strong connection points with through bolts and backing pads inside to spread the weight.

If you did a DIY job as you quite rightly say a reduction factor has to be applied to the safe working load to allow for the knots so you would need to use a heavier stra[p.

 

[Cobra25]

Hi, I think you missed my point. Were you towed backwards? Thus avoiding the bow wave you speak of, which is the idea of such a harness. The harness is designed like a parachutists with a crotch strap and an attachment at the nape of your neck for the lifeline.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Re: Falling overboard &amp; Safety Harness

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I am missing something, in which case please educate me, but I don't see why anybody would only use a single harness, at least with a double its there if you want it.

Anthony


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I will answer this one. I have a 26ft Catamaran with central cockpit. I have the main fwd jackstay running down the centre line of the coach roof. This allows you to connect before leaving the cockpit and is far enough inboard that even falling over the side the harness should snatch before you hit the oggin. You can reach the forestay at full stretch of the harness but are unable to reach the corners, This (cross fingered - touch wood - burn something) should never present a problem.

The aft access is from a single point which allows you to walk around the stern decks on a tight line. The biggest problem is travelling from the stern to the bow, but if you are behaved (SWMBO has been observed as being lazy about this at night when she thought I was asleep) you should enter the safety of the cockpit for the change over.

Double lines for me would not be of any benefit, you could not clip from aft to fore jackstay in one go. The biggest danger with my set up is falling off the coach roof when by the mast. It would be a long way to fall (the full length of harness), maybe, a second really short (1ft) clip on to the mast might be worth looking at.

Hope this helps.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

If you set the lines short enough to keep you onboard, a rear attaching line is going to turn you during a fall and you could end up in a very serious position hanging off the guard rails.

A front facing harness, surely gives you something to grab hold of if you are falling backwards.

 

[William_H]

Cobra25 question is very valid. Should the harness pull you from the front or back. I have always believed that my haerness was right in pulling from from high on the chest in effect a loop of webbing around the chest under the arms. Is that not the way wet weather gear with harness built in works? (I have never actually seen one.) It seems to me on a tiny yacht you have less concern in being dragged through the water because of lower speeds and less pulling power hence being dragged is ok (recoverable.) i can see that in a large yacht running in strong wind you could easily perish in the water on a lead. Capt Courageous has tested his harness and didn't like it so i will try mine out soon maybe this afternoon after the race. ( a tiny yacht) will let you know. will

 

[capt_courageous]

Hi Cobra
I just tried is as it was designed. That is attached at about mid chest. I was not wearing sailing kit just a pair of trunks. What it would have been like if I had been wearing foul weather gear I dread to think. Also being towed backwards does not appeal. The lifeline I used then was fixed to the harness - no snap link. Thinking about it now - if there had been a snap link on the harness at least I might have been able to undo it to prevent being swamped. Not something you could do going backwards.
During that same performance I tried getting back aboard without help - no chance. I tried to use our stern boarding ladder but that was no good either. The lowest tread has to be well under water - at least the distance from knee to ball of foot. I just could not lift myself if my foot was on the bottom rung. I also tried this in the local swimming pool to work out just how deep the rung would have to be under water.
All very clever stuff during a hot calm day in the Solent when I was a lot younger and fitter. I have no intention of trying it for real.

 

[Cobra25]

Hi Capt Courageous

I don't blame you. Though all being equal, and it never is, I would rather be towed backwards avoiding gallons of water being forced down my throat while the crew stopped the boat. I agree with the other chap on here keep a short leash and don't go overboard. That also assumes all things being equal. There is a chap going sailing today who is going to try it out backwards. It may become a sport!

 

[graham]

Re: Hi Capt Courageous

"There is a chap going sailing today who is going to try it out backwards. It may become a sport! "

Brave man ,must be warmer in Devon than here??

I think that what this discussion proves is that there is no simple solution.Every boat has its own particular problems that have to be assessed and the best compromise decided on.

 

[William_H]

Re: Hi Capt Courageous

So ole will did it this afternoon for the sake of science behind Howzat.( 21 footer) We were doing about 5 knots down wind I had on a bouyancy vest (ski jacket foam bouyancy) and undies. my harness is a fairly simple affair of webbing around the chest with rings to tie on a rope and webbing straps over the shoulder to hold the attachment high on the chest. I was prepared for the shock of the 6metre line taking up but not for the mouth and nose full of water when being towed belly dowm ie head first. i was able to grasp the tow rope and twist my body to roll back down and first and it was manageable being towed for a very short while. In fairness I probably knocked 1.5 knots off the boat speed ( son reckons he has found a use for the old bugger as a sea anchor). So you can not do anything but be towed until the boat is luffed up and the crew can pull you to the transom. In my case with a step permanently mounted just above water line I can hoist myself up with out aid. I should have tried again with the harness reversed which would pull from near the back of the neck but did not think of it the time. I dfo however think that way would be far better for being towed despite leaving you feeling helpless. so Cobra 5 Yes is the answer. regards ole will

 

[capt_courageous]

Re: Hi Capt Courageous

Glad to know I am not the only member of the Loony Safety Line Users Club. You can be our Australasian representative with special responsibility for the Pacific Ocean. Sorry - I see Perth is on the other side so you can do the Indian Ocean as well.

 

[Guest]

Getting back on board ...

Regarding the steps and getting back on ... having slipped in while rafted at Bembridge ..... I grabbed the boat toe-rail as I went over .... VERY LUCKY ....

I only have a 25ft motor-sailer .... with the fold down boarding steps on the transom. My wife dropped a ropes end over for me and tried to help me get foot on first step .... hopeless, the water was cold enough to start numbing the legs and my b-m etc. It got harder and harder to lift the leg up literally over seconds - not minutes.
It took 2 guys who climbed over on to the boat to get me up enough to put a foot on the step. The time to actually get back on-board from then was s....l.....o.......w as I had no feeling left in legs etc.

The time of year ? Early summer.

Last year at Priory Bay .... we anchored inside the sand reef and enjoyed a hearty BBQ .... later I rowed dinghy back with all the gear and wife swam back in the warm water. I had a 5 rung clip-over boarding ladder this time so it had a number of steps down deep in the water ..... she got back on easy ewnough - but remembered the Bembridge incident a couple of years prior ..... she reckoned that the ladder even withy the steps further down in water would not have really been any better ... she had to 'stretch' to get foot on ....

Conclusion - the average yottie with swmbo or so as crew is going to find it VERY difficult to get back on board - it needs brute strength or clever tactics to get that body back on.

/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Getting back on board ...

I think we'd be in the same situation and we have a sugar scoop bathing platform with decent boarding ladder. We have a Zodiac liferaft that has the upper tube pulled back to make a boarding 'gate' (the gate is closed when the survivors are all aboard). We have ours mounted on the pushpit and it can be released by a 7 year old with one hand tied behind the back.

So our strategy is to treat unplanned MOBs as a distress situation and launch the liferaft. OK, it is expensive to have repacked but hopefully it will never happen, and will in any case cost no more than buying one of those various aids. Most importantly, it should provide a safe environment for the casualty for as long as needed to get help or work out how to get them back aboard. I wouldn't feel happy with that strategy had we not had the Zodiac style raft with a boarding gate because I think we might not get into most of the budget rafts.