Fairline video

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View attachment 76347
Image from MBY article.
Is that the foam grid the green grid in the mid cabin ? Those squares?
In the ER it appears some inner liner ( the ER sole? ) has been fitted but the stb edge bit has not , so some green foam visible presumably waiting for a section of liner to cover ?

That’s earlier points about concealed cavities and exactly at some time in the future how do you drill a hole for a new skin fitting .Thinking from the inside thought the inner white liner.Then either a green foam grid piece or air gap , then the outer skin .
Btw those green squares don,t look particularly glassed in ? I mean why use green resin .You see why I said glued now .
Yes the edges of the inner liner could be tabed buts how are the they attached to the green foam square grid under in the hard to reach areas - glue ?

@ Ari + stelican .Bloke on the vid said his background was another larger builder and the FL technique was “ unique “
Of course we don’t know for sure really .

For balance I ve only got theses pic s which is what I mean by traditional.
View attachment 76349
View attachment 76350

As you can see no green foam squares forming a grid , no inner skin .
Just massive stringers and other bits solidly glassed in .
The cabin floor floats over the top look at the RHS of the top pic .
The seacock is a anchor wash IN near the bow area that’s just a very solid thick skin , only one the outer .
So if say I wanted to fit a fwd looking sonar I could just drill a hole , no double skin or risk of snagging a piece of foam grid .

Not wanting to expand into seakeeping but permit a bit ps ?
If the FL is lighter ( and stronger in theory think corrugated cardboard ) then add a superstructure say a fly or HT GTO , then is that a bit arse about tit in terms of where you want your weight = low down as much as possible, you are sort of going the other way taking weight out of the hull . Foam is light .
Magnums and Itamas major on keeping as much kg,s as low as possible evenly distributed- true mid engines as well .
All the weights IS in the hull lay up deliberately, not taken out . It’s not just a deep V thing wave crushing it’s the sum of many parts together acting in unison.
Ok there’s basically no superstructure, no hard top not even guard rails :)

However having said that FL s are great sea boats ,that’s always been a given by me btw but they arguable could be improved upon .

Still can’t figure out what’s the FL foam grid / inner liner is all about , I am baffled :confused:
 
Porto
What you are seeing in the mid cabin is the finished stringers and frames which are laid in foam sections which are then bonded to the hull with several layers of grp mat (hence name top hat) it looks green as clear resin is used. Same in engine bay where you can also see some of the stringers/frames have yet to be given a finishing coat of white gelcoat. THE SECTIONS BETWEEN THE STRINGERS AND FRAMES ARE NOT FOAM FILLED
The hull itself is not a sandwich construction as you suggest it is similar to you boat's hull construction and to Llyodds scantlings so very strong. They had a reputation for being built like tanks.
There is good access throughout the hull to service points through numerous inspection hatches and inside seat and bed bases in the accommodation area where the liner is fitted.
 
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Portofino said:
The liner issue has been picked up in previous threads Usually after I have raised it before .
Click to expand...
Not quite sure why the liner issue is such a hot topic. My main reason for raising it was to express surprise that David Seal, who is an experienced yacht broker with some manufacturing experience (Ferretti Custom Line) didnt seem to be aware of the technique. I was also surprised that the new Fairline factory in Hythe (?) didnt seem to get a mention as I would have thought that is the current big Fairline news
 
stelican said:
Porto
. THE SECTIONS BETWEEN THE STRINGERS AND FRAMES ARE NOT FOAM FILLED
The hull itself is not a sandwich construction as you suggest .
Click to expand...

Yeh we have already established that .
I never suggested any of the above .
Ps go back and read my 1 st post
I went through the bayliner , liner thing with a balsa core etc m which is I think what you have in mind ( excep swopping the balsa for foam ) then in a sep para said

“ but FL,s liner is different “ or words to that effect . See post #7

Btw I,am assuming the foam grid is made of none water absorbing foam , can’t see FL using that .

Going back to the factory pic I thought the white bit is the inner skin or liner .
If not where is this liner .

Just curious that’s all .
 
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Portofino said:
Yeh we have already established that .
I never suggested any of the above .
Ps go back and read my 1 st post
I went through the bayliner , liner thing with a balsa core etc m which is I think what you have in mind ( excep swopping the balsa for foam ) then in a sep para said

“ but FL,s liner is different “ or words to that effect .

Btw I,am assuming the foam grid is made of none water absorbing foam , can’t see FL using that .
Click to expand...

Porto, imagine you removed the deck moulding(s) from your boat. Then you removed the galley cupboards, the mattresses, the carpets, the sofa cushions, the hatch covers, etc. What you would see if a load of plywood sheets cut to fit (making up the cabin sole, lockers, bed base, etc).

Then imagine you made a single GRP moulding to replace all that ply. That's what a liner is.

Because it's in once piece, it adds rigidity to the boat. GRP is also lighter than wood and won't rot.

Now do you understand!?

Portofino said:
Going back to the factory pic I thought the white bit is the inner skin or liner .
If not where is this liner .

Just curious that’s all .
Click to expand...

The boat nearest us in that factory photo has not yet had the liner fitted. What you are seeing is the hull with the stringers glassed onto it. You'll notice the engine bay with a bulkhead that's shaped and glassed to the hull. You're also seeing the white gel washed engine bay (no liner in the engine bay). Also, I believe the engine bearers are glassed in timber.
 
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Are you sure.
Don't understand what you are saying about Bayliner never seen one with a balsa core they use to use coated shuttering ply!
What year was the bayliner
The liner is not in the boat in the photo the white you see is the flowcoat over the stringers ,frames and inside of hull
 
petem said:
Then imagine you made a single GRP moulding to replace all that ply. That's what a liner is.

Because it's in once piece, it adds rigidity to the boat. GRP is also lighter than wood and won't rot.

Now do you understand!?


.
Click to expand...
Wish I did :)
What you say above seems at odds with factory pic .
View attachment 76356

Looks pretty std marine ply partition s and several pieces as it part complete.

So where the liner that you are describing ?

Remember the bloke in the vid was singing it’s praises and saying he’s never seen FL,s liner method .

In fairness drop in prefabbed modules like a bathroom or what ever are done on a more , let’s put it this way rapid production boat further down market .
You know with prefabs seats and bunks as well just like you describe.
I,don’t think FL do that .They are normally glued in a squeak when you walk on them .FL don’t build cheap caravans .

Anyhow we know what ever FL do is very good , just curious to get to the bottom of there “unique “ liner method ,

In factory pic 1 , If the white bit over the green foam grid shaped parts is flowcoat then stelican and you ( if I understand? You both ) say the liner part must sit on top - right . Isn’t that a delamination risk ?
So air gaps , inaccessible areas between the top of the white flow coat and the under of the liner -
Glued in ?

Then build the compartment up on top like pic 2 .

We need a pic of a FL liner tbo .

Failing that no worries :encouragement:
 
petem said:
FFS Porto!

Here is JFM's first Sq78 before the liner was fitted:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...uild-pics-(Squadron-78)&p=2581532#post2581532

Hers is it after the liner was fitted:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...uild-pics-(Squadron-78)&p=2587630#post2587630

Now go back and read my posts and see if you can understand them.
Click to expand...

Thanks Pete I know and appreciate the time taken to find those pics .

But that’s how I described them, the liners . If any body has got any stamina left to read my post theses days :)

Pic paints a 1000 words .

I,am afraid your many description (s) were confusing eg the last few posts - the cabin spaces and further bulkheads are built after,, like in factory pic 2 in my post # 27 .
You said are dropped in with the liner . Doesn’t look like that ?

The liner looks glued in and there are inaccessible voids esp up the sides .See the G clamps squeezing the liner where it meets the hull at the top edges .
It’s a very rigid twin skin with a grid of glassed in and white flow coated foam strengtheners in between .A lot of air space between the liners and the hull skin .Some of the strengthens may be other materials like metals and wood as well as foam
A lot of the compartments at the sole look like they will have access hatches .Theres even a mini liner in the engine room around the main bearers identifiable on the pics .
The blue stuff is just protective sheet so the workers don,t mess it up .Some if it has been removed .

There’s been vagueness of how it’s attached .
Vagueness of wether there are voids or not under it and up the sides .
Confusion surrounding seperate compartments cabin bulkheads, they are added later like my factory pic shows it’s the traditional way - wood . .Apart from the engine room BH and anchor locker which again is glassed in marine ply in the trad way .

Certainly looks strong .Tricky spotting delamination between the two skins .

Anyhow I feel my original post fwiw was a pretty accurate description, the one which you went through later and in bold type added wrong .

Completely ambivalent Pete just curious.
 
And here the bit from my first post #7 attempting to describe it .

“[How ever fairline s system is different I understand and not to be confused with liner boats I’ve been previously reminded by PeteM .

Goes something like this ?

They sandwich a grid between the outer hull skin and inner liner .
The liner is glued down on the grid .
The grid is made of foam .Its not clear if it’s one large piece lowered into the hull skin and glued in or glassed in or seperate sections glassed in or glued in then the inner liner they drop on top and glue onto the already fixed grid.

It’s makes a stronger boat with a thinner outer skin and thus lighter hull , lightness helpful regarding performance in a planning boat .

The moot point in my view is the risk of the deterioration of the glue or poor workmanship or both and the separate skills inner and outer delaminating .
Also there must be voids in the gaps between the grid sections permanently covered and hard to access .

I have not thought about this but new post production through the hull fittings through the inner liner , a grid then the outer skin could be a challenge.???
I might be over thinking that one ? ] “
 
Porto
Do this in your spare time
1. A trip to the Absolute shipyard to see grid construction of hull and liner.
2 A trip to Fairline to see a standard hull lay up with a liner in the accommodation.
3 . A trip to see a vacuum bagged hull lay up balsa cored with a grid system liner (not sure if they are still doing this.
You would find this fascinating but you might have to pretend you were interested in buying one!
 
petem said:
My understanding from a layman's perspective (with a few factory visits)...
[...]
I had a vague feeling that some of the It manufacturers use the same basic construction but could be wrong?
Click to expand...
Copy all that.
And yes, afaik that ain't such an unusual technique, used also by Ferretti for instance, albeit only on their small to medium size models.
In my understanding, from the builder viewpoint the main factors driving the choice between the usage of this technique or wood panels is the number of boats to be built for any given model, together with the availability of skilled carpenters.
The higher the former and the lower the latter, the more GRP liners make sense.

In fact...
petem said:
Fairline's claim, as I understand it, is that the liner provides an extra level of stiffness as opposed to just using ply for the cabin sole.
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petem said:
Because it's in once piece, it adds rigidity to the boat. GRP is also lighter than wood and won't rot.
Click to expand...
I disagree on all these counts, bar the latter - and even that, only partially.

Firstly, there's no logical reason why a one piece interior, per se, should be stiffer than separate panels resined together.
It's more a matter of how strong and well put together the latter is vs. the first, for any given size/shape of the soles, bullheads, etc.
If there's one thing that AOTBE makes a GRP hull stronger, that's structural tanks (for obvious reasons), not liners for soles and bulkheads.

Secondly, GRP is NOT lighter than wood - precisely the opposite is true.

Lastly, on properly built boats, I've yet to see any rot wooden interiors, even on 30+ yo boats. Two caveats here:
First, the construction quality (resined junctions between the shell and the panels, etc.) must be good, to start with. But if it is, it's less prone than GRP to be cracked by hull flexing, that over time do happen, either when cruising in rough seas, or just when lifting/chocking the boat.
Second, forget the balsa used for GRP coring. That is something which no IT half decent builder would consider (well, afaik Azimut did long ago, but that's the only exception I can think of). The wood panels we are talking about are okoume multi-layered plywood, certified as structural material for nautical construction also in commercial vessels.
For any given size/weight, not only they put GRP to shame in terms of intrinsic characteristics (barely surpassed only by carbon fiber), but they are also way more resistant to rot than anyone's most optimistic expectations: it would take several years of neglected stagnating water in the bilges to begin affecting such panels. And I'm talking of fresh water, which is the worst enemy of wood. With salt waters, it would be a matter of decades!
 
PowerYachtBlog said:
Check also the Maritimo X60. Maritimo X60 was the boat of 2018, so revolutionary thanks to the aft cabin.
They have sold 20 plus of them from a yard which has between 5 and 10 orders of a new model in the first year.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I had not seen the Maritimo yet. Very interesting layout, although I would prefer the lounging area over the aft cabin. I wonder if these types of layouts are by default linked with IPS drives as there may not be enough space for shafts.
 
Nice video of the Nimbus method with vacuum infusion and Divincell (sp?) https://youtu.be/AjNBuvJf1IU
They glue a compete frame of stringers into the hull and then add the deck mould (liner if you will). With these smaller boats there is more GRP in the interior so that’s all part of the liner.
 
stelican said:
Fairline and Princess use the same method of construction.
Individual Top Hat section foam stringers are bounded to the hull as are all main bulkheads. The inner liner is tab bonded to the bulkheads. I cannot recall if the liner is bonded to the stringers or just sits on modge.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Had a feeling that was the case. :)
 
stelican said:
Porto
Do this in your spare time
1. A trip to the Absolute shipyard to see grid construction of hull and liner. = Advance but needs careful planning and a lot of R and D with the right people. I have been owner of two Gobbi boats one of which the 335 is the prototype of this system.
2 A trip to Fairline to see a standard hull lay up with a liner in the accommodation. = Pretty normal in most production builders and I see nothing wrong with it.
3 . A trip to see a vacuum bagged hull lay up balsa cored with a grid system liner = not sure if they are still doing this. But I think Viking still works this way.
Click to expand...
 
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