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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Nice video here from the Yachts for Sale bloke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhEVcO2FWYQ
Never heard of a hull liner?
Never heard of a hull liner?
petem
Well-Known Member
Good video. Interesting that Alberto still seems to be involved.
markc
Well-Known Member
Interesting video. I'm not sure I like the feature at 5:36 - is that to keep the sunbathers cool on the aft sunpad? 
jimmy_the_builder
Well-Known Member
Did anyone else spot James Barke doing a cameo at 7'51?
EricJ
Well-Known Member
Nice video indeed. They could have shown a bit more about the production process.
On that same channel I watched this video: https://youtu.be/H1EpD2X_Z3k
The Van der Valk Beachclub 600 (5:03) is a revolutionary design. That aft lounge area looks very cool!
On that same channel I watched this video: https://youtu.be/H1EpD2X_Z3k
The Van der Valk Beachclub 600 (5:03) is a revolutionary design. That aft lounge area looks very cool!
Bigplumbs
Well-Known Member
Very good and interesting video. I think it is sad that the smallest they do is a 43 footer..... We need some 30 footers with large outboards from the UK builders in my view to reinvigorate the lower end of the market
Dennis
Dennis
Portofino
Well-Known Member
The liner issue has been picked up in previous threads Usually after I have raised it before .
Now you have raised it .So that’s two of us off PeteM,s Xmas list
You joining me !You picked up on one point only in a 10 min informative vid .So let’s discuss it .
How old is that vid btw? Thought Mancini had 8uggered off ?
I ,ve crossed swords with mainly PeteM and JFM .
Pete usually not happy by the reference to the word “ liner “ as they are used in cheap production bayliners with balsa or foam core in between .
As the boat flexes over time and or through holes water enters the balsa core and rot
.Initially the liners are lighter and stronger and use less man hours and less expensive GRP .
How ever fairline s system is different I understand and not to be confused with liner boats I’ve been previously reminded by PeteM .
Goes something like this ?
They sandwich a grid between the outer hull skin and inner liner .
The liner is glued down on the grid .
The grid is made of foam .Its not clear if it’s one large piece lowered into the hull skin and glued in or glassed in or seperate sections glassed in or glued in then the inner liner they drop on top and glue onto the already fixed grid.
It’s makes a stronger boat with a thinner outer skin and thus lighter hull , lightness helpful regarding performance in a planning boat .
The moot point in my view is the risk of the deterioration of the glue or poor workmanship or both and the separate skills inner and outer delaminating .
Also there must be voids in the gaps between the grid sections permanently covered and hard to access .
I have not thought about this but new post production through the hull fittings through the inner liner , a grid then the outer skin could be a challenge.???
I might be over thinking that one ?
As you probably know the trad method is basically a few blokes with a mould tin of gel coat some grp matting and tin of resin and a roller .
Taking time, a long time to lay up as thick a hull adding marine ply stringers and bulkheads as and when as they go along , Expensive in labour and materials inadvertently ending up with a heavier hull that will dull performance.
Although you add more Hp with bigger ( more expensive) engines .
Coming back to the date I thought ( happy to be corrected ) that actually the new Mancini/ VPak ( sp?) had move away from there liner approach with the FL Targa 63 GTO .I thought the consulting engineers had swayed them away from there grid and liner method ?
Does anyone know if that’s the case ?
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henryf
Well-Known Member
What a great thread.
I found it interesting watching the Fairline video that they are the one mid 50'foot flybridge builder who's stand I didn't visit at Düsseldorf because the SQ53 just doesn't do it for me I'm afraid due to the tight Saloon / long thin cockpit, and yet they claim to build what I want rather than what's they want me to have. I do agree there is huge flexibility in terms of cabin options even including a 4 cabin design but that main deck just doesn't get my juices flowing I'm afraid.
What most definitely did get the juices flowing was the beach club 600 from Van Der Valk. What a stunning concept, so very different from anything else out there but one that you can instantly see working. I can't wait to see one in the flesh. I can't think of a boat that has re-designed the wheel to this extent without being so far out there as to be impractical.
Henry
I found it interesting watching the Fairline video that they are the one mid 50'foot flybridge builder who's stand I didn't visit at Düsseldorf because the SQ53 just doesn't do it for me I'm afraid due to the tight Saloon / long thin cockpit, and yet they claim to build what I want rather than what's they want me to have. I do agree there is huge flexibility in terms of cabin options even including a 4 cabin design but that main deck just doesn't get my juices flowing I'm afraid.
What most definitely did get the juices flowing was the beach club 600 from Van Der Valk. What a stunning concept, so very different from anything else out there but one that you can instantly see working. I can't wait to see one in the flesh. I can't think of a boat that has re-designed the wheel to this extent without being so far out there as to be impractical.
Henry
petem
Well-Known Member
Porto, I'm not surprised to see that you're as confused as error. My comments below...
The liner issue has been picked up in previous threads Usually after I have raised it before .
Now you have raised it .So that’s two of us off PeteM,s Xmas list
You picked up on one point only in a 10 min informative vid .So let’s discuss it .
How old is that vid btw? Thought Mancini had 8uggered off ? Looks like he's still involved, yesterdays MBY mentioned him too.
I ,ve crossed swords with mainly PeteM and JFM .
Pete usually not happy by the reference to the word “ liner “ as they are used in cheap production bayliners with balsa or foam core in between .
As the boat flexes over time and or through holes water enters the balsa core and rot
.Initially the liners are lighter and stronger and use less man hours and less expensive GRP . That's Bayliner. Fairline don't use balsa or foam in between the liner and the hull.
How ever fairline s system is different I understand and not to be confused with liner boats I’ve been previously reminded by PeteM .
Goes something like this ?
They sandwich a grid between the outer hull skin and inner liner . Nope, as I have told you countless times they do not used a pre-formed grid, the stringers are glassed around foam directly onto the hull. The only thing they have in common with the 'grid' that you have in your mind is that they formed at right angles.
The liner is glued down on the grid . Wrong again, it's not a pre-formed grid.
The grid is made of foam .Its not clear if it’s one large piece lowered into the hull skin and glued in or glassed in or seperate sections glassed in or glued in then the inner liner they drop on top and glue onto the already fixed grid. It's not a pre-formed grid and nothing is glued to the hull.
It’s makes a stronger boat with a thinner outer skin and thus lighter hull , lightness helpful regarding performance in a planning boat . Wrong again, the liner isn't used to allow Fairline to economise on a thinner hull.
The moot point in my view is the risk of the deterioration of the glue or poor workmanship or both and the separate skills inner and outer delaminating . Wrong again, see above.
Also there must be voids in the gaps between the grid sections permanently covered and hard to access . Wrong again, if you life the hatches in my sole you see the hull and stringers.
I have not thought about this but new post production through the hull fittings through the inner liner , a grid then the outer skin could be a challenge.??? Wrong again, the through hull fittings are made directly through the hull, not through the liner.
I might be over thinking that one ?
As you probably know the trad method is basically a few blokes with a mould tin of gel coat some grp matting and tin of resin and a roller .
Taking time, a long time to lay up as thick a hull adding marine ply stringers and bulkheads as and when as they go along , Expensive in labour and materials inadvertently ending up with a heavier hull that will dull performance.
Although you add more Hp with bigger ( more expensive) engines . Fairline make their hulls with gel coat, grp and rollers, same as any other quality manufacturer. Note that the later boats are resin infused.
Coming back to the date I thought ( happy to be corrected ) that actually the new Mancini/ VPak ( sp?) had move away from there liner approach with the FL Targa 63 GTO .I thought the consulting engineers had swayed them away from there grid and liner method ? Not that I'm aware of. As far as I know Fairline continue to use the liner construction.
Does anyone know if that’s the case ?
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PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
Check also the Maritimo X60. Maritimo X60 was the boat of 2018, so revolutionary thanks to the aft cabin.
They have sold 20 plus of them from a yard which has between 5 and 10 orders of a new model in the first year.
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
I thought it was a nice video which would be make viewers more likely to look seriously at F/L than they would have been before watching it.
It spoke to me of a can-do culture in the company and good products.
It spoke to me of a can-do culture in the company and good products.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
P, just take my interest on this matter for what it is - namely, idle curiosity.
But while reading your comments I clearly understood what you are telling to PF that FL building technique is NOT, I struggle to understand what it really IS.
I mean, what's its technical rationale, really?
And are you aware of any other builders (among the supposedly "good" ones, I mean) who went the same route?
petem
Well-Known Member
My understanding from a layman's perspective (with a few factory visits)...
1) They mould the hull in the conventional manner - resin / mat / men with rollers (or vacuum bag for newer boats).
2) The stringers are hand formed / glassed onto the hull (around foam). More men with resin / mat / rollers.
3) Certain bulkheads are added (engine, anchor locker, etc).
4) The single piece GRP liner (forming the cabin sole, some lockers / seat bases, etc) is glassed onto the hull / bulkheads. I believe other builders use ply instead of this liner.
5) The superstructure is bolted and bonded on top of the hull / liner.
I had a vague feeling that some of the It manufacturers use the same basic construction but could be wrong?
Fairline's claim, as I understand it, is that the liner provides an extra level of stiffness as opposed to just using ply for the cabin sole.
1) They mould the hull in the conventional manner - resin / mat / men with rollers (or vacuum bag for newer boats).
2) The stringers are hand formed / glassed onto the hull (around foam). More men with resin / mat / rollers.
3) Certain bulkheads are added (engine, anchor locker, etc).
4) The single piece GRP liner (forming the cabin sole, some lockers / seat bases, etc) is glassed onto the hull / bulkheads. I believe other builders use ply instead of this liner.
5) The superstructure is bolted and bonded on top of the hull / liner.
I had a vague feeling that some of the It manufacturers use the same basic construction but could be wrong?
Fairline's claim, as I understand it, is that the liner provides an extra level of stiffness as opposed to just using ply for the cabin sole.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Admittedly I,am a rubbish wordsmith ,can’t seem to change that
But I can’t work out the benefits other than a lighter and arguably stronger hull when it leaves the factory for the owner .
For the builder an element of cost cutting in labour and materials.
If the outer skin is so strong why bother attaching a foam grid to it and then a seperate inner liner ?
It’s either a fantastically superior method that others can’t do or something else ?? But what is it ??
Where does it fit in sub 100 ft GRP boat building tech ?
They all watch each other .
First one with a hydraulic Hilo bathing flatform or fordeck table and walk through sitting area , then they all copy .
The others must have thought about this FL system of foam grid on the outer + inner liner on top ,but why have they dismissed it ?
Eg vac baggings that common and accepted nowadays , it not unique to one builder .
I,am not being judgemental on any technique just curious and can’t figure out why FL only use it or used it if they have recently set off down the vac bag route .
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Portofino
Well-Known Member
Pete according to the vid the liner is glued in on top of the grid .
How can it glassed in when it dropped on top of the grid ? edges maybe but the huge flat areas under in the middle
Vid shows a guys squirting some gob out of a glue gun .
Thinking corrugated cardboard two layers of thinner stuff with a grid glued between holding them together .
markc
Well-Known Member
I agree that there must be a perceived cost / time (also cost) benefit to Fairline or they wouldn't do it, unless they were providing a discernible point of difference to their product.
ari
Well-Known Member
Are you absolutely sure that others have dismissed it/don't use it?
petem
Well-Known Member
How can it glassed in when it dropped on top of the grid ? edges maybe but the huge flat areas under in the middle
I need to watch the video again with the sound on (when not at work). Remember that the hull is 'V' shaped whereas the liner has a flat central section (it's the cabin floor remember). To put it another way, I lift the hatches that are cut into the saloon floor (liner) than there is a couple of feet between the liner and the hull where the skin fittings are.
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petem
Well-Known Member
Admittedly I,am a rubbish wordsmith ,can’t seem to change that
That's OK, we're used to it!
Surely, a lighter and stronger hull is a massive benefit!
Are you telling me that your boat has no stringers? Surely not?
stelican
Well-Known Member
Fairline and Princess use the same method of construction.
Individual Top Hat section foam stringers are bounded to the hull as are all main bulkheads. The inner liner is tab bonded to the bulkheads. I cannot recall if the liner is bonded to the stringers or just sits on modge.
