Fairline or Princess?

henryf said:
Just to add JFM I could be cheeky and say nothing would go wrong ;)

H. :)
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You could say it Henry :D

If you have good princess contacts ask them to tell you the true story about fitting fin stabilisers in the first 72s last year. Ask them if there were any problems and don't be fobbed off. I'll spare them the gory detail but if you find out the true story of what they did even you may never buy one of their products again.
 
henryf said:
The dealer's in the UK are part of the whole Princess company as I understand it. Not third party independent companies as per Fairline and most other Marques.
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Why is an independent dealer worse? When placing a large deposit i'd rather have two balance sheets to rely on than one (especially a big balance sheet like Essex Boatyards')

henryf said:
In terms of taking your boat to the Med you'd have to talk to Princess about that. There will be dealer's down there but there is a cut off between the dealer doing the work and the factory sending someone out. If you hadn't told them of your intentions or discussed warranty with them then I'm not sure it's fair to expect someone to fly out to you. It may be a s case of them sending parts foc and even contributing to labour if necessary? All I can say is on the South Coast where we are they are great, to the point where they even still get involved with jobs like cushion upgrades and so on.
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Henry you're dancing around your handbag there :). I'm not saying anything about unfairness. I'm just responding to the assertion that Princess support is "second to none". The support is fine if you stay local but fact is, if you buy a big princess in UK and take it far from the dealer your support is reduced to them maybe supply parts and the overseas dealer or a boat fixer (who have little skin in the game) doing the repairs. Whereas Fairline fly UK factory folks out to their loyal customers in less time than the jiffy bag of Princess parts will arrive in. Princess support away from base is well known to be second to Fairline/Essex Boatyards
 
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Dealers are owned by the parent company ....


Henryf - be careful here as Princess Yachts International has entirely different ownership to Princess Motor Yacht Sales.


In the old days you could link up back to Northampton and back to benificial ownership with the S.Africian fellow - the factory is now controlled by LVMH group with over 50 luxury brands and agreed deep pockets to give you confort.
 
Steady with the deep pockets and 50 brands. LVMH has a minority shareholding in Princess. The biggest shareholder is L capital's fund 3, a private equity fund whose capital is owned by 50 or so pension funds. There is no cross-linkage financially to the 50 brands in the way there is in a normal corporate group
 
I'm afraid you're going beyond the financial understanding of this country boy. As I understand things Princess sales are part of Princess. How they decide to handle things on the balance sheet is up to them but ultimately the two sides are linked and owned by a rather large luxury brand. Be that ownership in full or in part I feel it can only be a good thing.

In terms of fin stabilisers thankfully nothing I'll ever be able to afford in the near future will be fitted with them. A pair of flopper stoppers possibly :)

Essex are a very big concern but ultimately not part of Fairline. We saw what happened to Peters (again I don't know or understand the financial details but they seemed a pretty big set up).

We are clearly both stalwart supporters of our respective brands and when buying our boats you clearly had much more to lose than me. Your investment will register on the balance sheet my paltry offering won't even dent the paper it's written on. Your magnificent epic following the boat's build means everyone in the boating world judges Fairline on your experience. I can't think of a post one here which gained as much publicity for a manufacturer (other than some Trader based posts for a different reason ;) ), so Fairline will move heaven and earth for you. You are a very special customer for them.

But what has impressed me with Princess is even as a bargain hunting buyer of their smallest flybridge in the range 3 1/2 Yeats ago I still enjoyed the support and continue to enjoy the recognition and benefits afforded to "VIP" customers.

In the old days we couldn't even get on the Fairline boat show stand without being given the third degree and we owned one! I've been to see Essex a couple of times and they are easy to deal with and always up for a deal is one is to be had but, and I may be a total mug for thinking it, I feel the smile at Princess is a bit more genuine.

As I've said previously both makers are in the top league so don't let readers get confused otherwise and be put off either on the grounds of thinking one is bad and one is good. We're talking personal taste and individual experience as much as anything.

And if you do ever want to get back to basics and connect with the hobby's roots JFM don't feel as a Princess owner I wouldn't be averse to a weeks boat swap with you. I'm not that proud :)

Keep smiling


Henry :)
 
jfm said:
Henry I'm pretty sure the 63p is an standard turbo arrangement. No supercharger-then-turbo set up like the KADs and various other volvos
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Thats correct and AFAIK the D6 doesn't have a supercharger either. I would guess that any improvement in performance between D6 powered boats and 63P powered boats comes from improved engine management. Praps volvopaul can comment
 
henryf said:
The dealer's in the UK are part of the whole Princess company as I understand it. Not third party independent companies as per Fairline and most other Marques. The showroom arm of the factory if you will. I know in other parts of the world this is not the case.
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Thats as maybe but that doesn't necessarily mean you are better protected financially. Most if not all manufacturers run their in-house sales operations as separate companies and in order to protect the manufacturer from customer litigation, these companies are unlikely to have any substantial assets. In theory, the Princess sales organisations are just as likely or unlikely to go bust holding your deposit as any other independent dealer although of course, you would expect Princess to bail them out but you couldn't bet on it.
As for customer service back up, I'm sure that Princess are excellent but I don't see that manufacturer owned sales outlets are by definition better at providing customer service than independent dealers. In fact, often its the other way round as dealers live or die by their reputation and their ability to keep their customers satisfied
 
:D :D Thanks Henry! I love the concept that blatting about in your 400k mobo is connecting with roots :)

Ok I wont go on about the corporate ownership of Princess but it is what it is, not one big combined LVMH goup, though of course the consequences of that will never hit anyone in their pocket unless there is a company failure, which thankfully seems unlikely now. I'm not criticising them one bit for their structure by the way. It's totally sensible

To compare EBY with Peters is really grossly unfair Henry. EBY is well capitalised (though with some corporate separation a la LVMH) and they do not misdirect moneys that should be in trust they way Peters did. EBY is immensely more financially sound than Peters ever was and is run very professionally by the Barkes who are fully on top of cash management and own the freehold of their site and own the marina. Have no doubts that I delved into this prior to becoming an unsecured creditor for a figure with two commas in it :D

Regarding the nice treatment from Fairline that is not a "reward" for publicity on here. I got great help (before and after sales) from EBY and Fairline when buying the 58 a few years ago. That was long before I even ordered the 78 let alone posted the in-build material on here

Anyway, no falling out here, and we 100% agree that this is just banter on Merc vs BMW, which really is quite a good quality conundrum to be faced with eh? :D
 
Deleted User said:
Most if not all manufacturers run their in-house sales operations as separate companies and in order to protect the manufacturer from customer litigation
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There's usually another reason for that, and it's the chance to massage a bit the first line of the manufacturer P&L (TP sales).
After all, what's easier than selling (or not) another boat to your own dealer...?
In other words, talking of Princess - and I'm genuinely curious because I don't know the answer - do they have a consolidated B/S where boats do not affect TP sales till they're actually sold to the final customer?
 
henryf said:
And if you do ever want to get back to basics and connect with the hobby's roots JFM don't feel as a Princess owner I wouldn't be averse to a weeks boat swap with you. I'm not that proud :)
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Yeah, I'm sure many other forumites would accept such swap too... :D
 
MapisM said:
There's usually another reason for that, and it's the chance to massage a bit the first line of the manufacturer P&L (TP sales).
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Yes thats quite true. I know one (Italian) manufacturer of construction equipment, a subsidiary of a publically owned company, who was sitting on a vast amount of unsold stock after the recession hit them in 2008. They sold the stock to a leasing company (and then leased it back from them) and they booked all the unsold stock as sales turnover in their accounts. Their 2008 P&L account looked fantastic compared to their competitors:)
 
Deleted User said:
Thats correct and AFAIK the D6 doesn't have a supercharger either. I would guess that any improvement in performance between D6 powered boats and 63P powered boats comes from improved engine management. Praps volvopaul can comment
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The D6 has come in various flavours since its launch about 7 years ago (280, 310, 330, 370 and 435hp off the top of my head, I'm sure there must be others) and so I guess they may not all have the same ancilliaries - but the D6-350's in my boat _do_ have both supercharger and turbocharger.

Cheers
Jimmy
 
jfm said:
OK, to test that, if you bought a new princess from the UK dealer then cleared off to the Med in it, would they really send factory folks down on a plane to fix your boat, less than a week after you notified the problem?
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Sorry jfm - I'm a bit late catching up with this thread - been sitting in the sun all day.

Not quite tested your comment but generally speaking, Yes you can buy a boat from the UK Princess dealer and ?ugger off to the Med.
They do send factory folks out to the Med.
We had some internal screens replaced - it must have been a very difficult job to do away from home - all done in Spain by the guys from the UK - fantastic service.

As you know our boat is well out of warranty but we still get full support from the guys at Swanwick - just as if we had bought her yesterday.
Example - I thought we had picked up the dreaded fuel bug on out trip to the SoF recently. When I got home, I emailed Swanwick and they sent me full drawings of the fuel tanks detailing the little sumps and drain cocks that are fitted to the tanks. This information helped me to identify the kit I needed to drain the bottom of the tanks - turned out to be a false alarm -the bug was only in the Separ filters. This is the kind of support we have had since new and I cant see why it wont continue.

I know you get the same support from Fairline but I just wanted to make the point that Princess matches it.
 
OB Rating

If OB rating is important then go Fairline.

The OB committee have met and are unanimous that Princess score lower in all cases vs Fairline when it comes to OB scoring scheme. Sorry....:D
 
Hurricane said:
Not quite tested your comment but generally speaking, Yes you can buy a boat from the UK Princess dealer and ?ugger off to the Med.
They do send factory folks out to the Med.
We had some internal screens replaced - it must have been a very difficult job to do away from home - all done in Spain by the guys from the UK - fantastic service.
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I don't want to pour cold water on this EBY/Princess love-in but is sending somebody to fix your multi million pound boat in the Med something you shouldn't expect as a matter of course? The manufacturers/dealers are obliged by law to offer European wide warranties anyway and if it was cheaper for them to send technicians out to the Med to fix a problem rather than bring in local expertise, that's what they'll do. To put this into some kind of perspective, in my business area, manufacturers offer global warranties which means that if a piece of equipment breaks down in Timbuktu and the local dealer can't fix it, the manufacturer will put a technician on a plane immediately. Thats what customers expect.
It seems to me that the cottage industry culture of the boat building business has lowered customer expectations so much that putting a technician on a 2hr Easyjet flight to Spain is lauded as fantastic customer service when compared to other industries, it should be the norm. Guys, you've spent squillions on your boats; you should expect this kind of service as a minimum
 
When looking for my next boat last year I viewed both FL and Princess boats, the build quality of both boats seemed to be the same but there seemed a lot of FL boats for sale and not many Princess boats,( I was looking at late 90's Squadrons, early 2000's Phantoms and late 90,s Princess Flybridge boats up to 46feet) I ended up buying a second hand Princess through Princess at Swanwick and have found them to be very helpful, professional, and I have been made to feel like a VIP and so far their aftermarket service has been excellent, the boat has been faultless and is a joy to be on, my final choice came down to price,layout and finish in the end, I am sure what ever you end up buying weather it be a FL or a Princess you won't be disappointed.
 
Deleted User said:
I don't want to pour cold water on this EBY/Princess love-in but is sending somebody to fix your multi million pound boat in the Med something you shouldn't expect as a matter of course? The manufacturers/dealers are obliged by law to offer European wide warranties anyway and if it was cheaper for them to send technicians out to the Med to fix a problem rather than bring in local expertise, that's what they'll do. To put this into some kind of perspective, in my business area, manufacturers offer global warranties which means that if a piece of equipment breaks down in Timbuktu and the local dealer can't fix it, the manufacturer will put a technician on a plane immediately. Thats what customers expect.
It seems to me that the cottage industry culture of the boat building business has lowered customer expectations so much that putting a technician on a 2hr Easyjet flight to Spain is lauded as fantastic customer service when compared to other industries, it should be the norm. Guys, you've spent squillions on your boats; you should expect this kind of service as a minimum
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Amen to that.
Altough situations are never actually like that and in the past couple years where problems on new builds (0 - 3 years) seem to be the norm rather the exception, have seen a lot of dealers from a few brands using the local expertise.
 
Moving back to the topic..............

Both are good craft, but is does come down to personal choice, my suggestion is to try both and see what you think.

I would also poke and prod every aspect of each boat and see how they both fit into your criteria, and formulate an opinion from there.

Good luck with whichever choice you make.
 
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