Fairline Gone Pop

[ari]

His point I guess is that boats were simpler and more affordable. People bought them in decent numbers and the builders made a profit.

It's not a great example because people wouldn't accept flybridge ladders now.

But they might accept a 40ft sports cruiser laden with so much fancy woodwork, fold down sides, hi lo platforms, snazzy lighting that it retails for the thick end of £1m.

No, he was trying to claim that Princess was (his words) 'behind the curve'. it wasn't.

 

[Bouba]

+1

It's been said before but the sales effort needed to sell a £500k hull is not much different to a selling £5M hull. Smaller market obviously but one can see the financial attraction to move up the market.

The problem is that every boat manufacturer has the same business plan

 

[oldgit]

No, he was trying to claim that Princess was (his words) 'behind the curve'. it wasn't.

35ft 2" of Sealine .1993.

53ft of superyacht 1995.

 

[Grubble]

Boats or cars?
I don't know how the French get away with it, but somehow car plants there end up getting subsidised.

Boats, but I suppose the same goes for cars. The French, Germans and Italians all have successful boat building industries - but they aren't low cost tax havens, awash with cheap labour and energy, so it seems blaming those things for British boatbuilders failing is an excuse, rather than an underlying reason.

In fact PowerYachtBlog did list the advantages they have over the Brits.

 

[Seastoke]

To say building small boats is not viable , walk around marinas and they are flooded by small French boats.

You seem to misunderstand an Administrator's role.

Ok so you know how they work , I am looking to invest in Fairline as the Admin how will you convince me to get my wallet out.

 

[Bouba]

35ft 2" of Sealine .1993.

53ft of superyacht 1995.

I agree with you.....we don’t use our fly bridge because the dog can’t get up the ladder

 

[Seastoke]

I agree with you.....we don’t use our fly bridge because the dog can’t get up the ladder

I have told you not to be a Misogynist.

 

[Seastoke]

I have told you not to be a Misogynist.

 

[Bigplumbs]

I think there is another massive point which is to some extent unlike Cars Boats never die. You cant just keep making them. The supply will end up greater than the demand.

Also those Russians with loads of cash have been prevented from travel and buying much for the last 2 plus years

 

[ari]

35ft 2" of Sealine .1993.

53ft of superyacht 1995.

The Sealine 350 Statesman launched in 1991, mostly due to the fact that the wife of Tom Murrant (boss of Sealine) complained to him that she couldn't easily bring a cup of tea up to the flybridge.

The Princess 500 was a very gentle facelift of the Princess 48 which launched in 1990, a year earlier (and certainly isn't a 'superyacht'), at which time ALL small to medium sized aft cockpit flybridge boats had ladders.

The first aft cockpit Princess with stairs to the flybridge was the Princess 440, it launched about 18 months later in 1993.

So you are correct that Sealine was the first to introduce stairs to the flybridge for smaller aft cockpit boats (aft cabin boats like the Fairline Turbo 36 and Princess 435 had moulded stairs in the eighties), someone had to be.

But your claim that this proves Princess (and every other manufacturer at the time) was 'behind the curve' is, I'm afraid, nonsense, not to mention irrelevant to this thread.

 

[Seastoke]

The problem is that every boat manufacturer has the same business plan

Bouba don’t go woke on me.

 

[Flynnbarr]

The Sealine 350 Statesman launched in 1991, mostly due to the fact that the wife of Tom Murrant (boss of Sealine) complained to him that she couldn't easily bring a cup of tea up to the flybridge.

The Princess 500 was a very gentle facelift of the Princess 48 which launched in 1990, a year earlier (and certainly isn't a 'superyacht'), at which time ALL small to medium sized aft cockpit flybridge boats had ladders.

The first aft cockpit Princess with stairs to the flybridge was the Princess 440, it launched about 18 months later in 1993.

So you are correct that Sealine was the first to introduce stairs to the flybridge for smaller aft cockpit boats (aft cabin boats like the Fairline Turbo 36 and Princess 435 had moulded stairs in the eighties), someone had to be.

But your claim that this proves Princess (and every other manufacturer at the time) was 'behind the curve' is, I'm afraid, nonsense, not to mention irrelevant to this thread.

Fly bridge moulded stairs or ladder is yet another one of OG’s many hobby horses that he likes to wax lyrically about …..
Do you think I should mention to him that the Humber 38 fly bridge had moulded stairs in the 80’s…

 

[Fire99]

The only thing I add to 'stair gate scandal of 2025 ' is Trader went from a three steep steps from the rear deck to the flybridge to a four step, but with a greater rake to make it more like stairs rather than a ladder. Works well for me and no physically impaired folk struggle. That said, having an aft cabin does mean it's a short trip to the flybridge rather than with the likes of the Princess 500 (which funnily I nearly bought one a few years ago. Lovely boat)

 

[westernman]

Boats, but I suppose the same goes for cars. The French, Germans and Italians all have successful boat building industries - but they aren't low cost tax havens, awash with cheap labour and energy, so it seems blaming those things for British boatbuilders failing is an excuse, rather than an underlying reason.

In fact PowerYachtBlog did list the advantages they have over the Brits.

The key for the success of Beneteau is the relatively high level of computerised design and manufacturing processes. You won't see any one with a chisel in a Beneteau factory. The boats are assembled rather than built. This makes efficient use of expensive labour. The other bits, resin, engines, electronics etc cost the same as for other builders.

The UK manufactures have put off the computerisation of design, cutting and manufacturing too long on the basis they do bespoke design.
You can do bespoke design more efficiently with computers and computerised manufacturing.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

The key for the success of Beneteau is the relatively high level of computerised design and manufacturing processes. You won't see any one with a chisel in a Beneteau factory. The boats are assembled rather than built. This makes efficient use of expensive labour. The other bits, resin, engines, electronics etc cost the same as for other builders.

The UK manufactures have put of the computerised design, cutting and manufacturing too long on the basis they do bespoke design.
You can do bespoke design more efficiently with computers and computerised manufacturing.

From what I understood all Discovery yacht interiors were comprised design and cut but with a degree of hand finished mouldings. Every door, drawer etc had a laser etched number that identified it and it could be reproduced. It didn't stop them going bump though. Having been on a Discovery 55 and a 50 foot Beneteau I have to say though that it is not a good comparison, more like comparing a Mercedes with Tesla

 

[westernman]

From what I understood all Discovery yacht interiors were comprised design and cut but with a degree of hand finished mouldings. Every door, drawer etc had a laser etched number that identified it and it could be reproduced. It didn't stop them going bump though. Having been on a Discovery 55 and a 50 foot Beneteau I have to say though that it is not a good comparison, more like comparing a Mercedes with Tesla

What is the difference in new price? A factor of 2x maybe?
For what percentage of the market is the difference in price acceptable?

At home not all my furniture is solid wood. Some of it is MDF. Some of it comes from IKEA.
Which furniture companies are more successful - those making bespoke solid wood pieces or IKEA?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

What is the difference in new price? A factor of 2x maybe?
For what percentage of the market is the difference in price acceptable?

At home not all my furniture is solid wood. Some of it is MDF. Some of it comes from IKEA.
Which furniture companies are more successful - those making bespoke solid wood pieces or IKEA?

Horses for courses I have had Ikea furniture well some wardrobes to be precise which I fitted in a bedroom in the UK, tried one of their chairs ( Pix Boing or something like that) utilitarian is the best way of describing it, at the moment I am typing this sitting in a stressless chair, they do the same thing ostensibly but one is much better and much nicer than the other. There is more than a 2X price differential. However we were talking about manufacturing methods and they were very much the same between Discovery and Beneteau but the materials were different and so was the target market and that's the key there isn't that large a market for such boats. As the Scandinavians have discovered. Discovery weren't helped by a very public case involving a poorly finished boat and also other legal problems involving ownership.

 

[westernman]

Horses for courses I have had Ikea furniture well some wardrobes to be precise which I fitted in a bedroom in the UK, tried one of their chairs ( Pix Boing or something like that) utilitarian is the best way of describing it, at the moment I am typing this sitting in a stressless chair, they do the same thing ostensibly but one is much better and much nicer than the other. There is more than a 2X price differential. However we were talking about manufacturing methods and they were very much the same between Discovery and Beneteau but the materials were different and so was the target market and that's the key there isn't that large a market for such boats. As the Scandinavians have discovered. Discovery weren't helped by a very public case involving a poorly finished boat and also other legal problems involving ownership.

Exactly. A Beneteau do very well at making well priced boats which are very well suited to their market while still maintaining a very healthy operating margin.

Do I appreciate the interior of a Rolls Royce? For sure. Will I ever buy one? No way. Does it get any faster from A to B than a Fiat panda? No. Is it more comfortable than a Mercedes E class with air suspension? A bit, but not really enough to notice. Is the price justifiable?

Obviously for some. And for many more people than those who would consider a Discovery yacht or even a Fairline.

A 50ft yacht is far too small for the really rich. So it has to be built down to a price that the middle classes can afford. That is what Beneteau excels at. Discovery yachts, Fairline, ... less so.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Exactly. A Beneteau do very well at making well priced boats which are very well suited to their market while still maintaining a very healthy operating margin.

Do I appreciate the interior of a Rolls Royce? For sure. Will I ever buy one? No way. Does it get any faster from A to B than a Fiat panda? No. Is it more comfortable than a Mercedes E class with air suspension? A bit, but not really enough to notice. Is the price justifiable?

Obviously for some. And for many more people than those who would consider a Discovery yacht or even a Fairline.

A 50ft yacht is far too small for the really rich. So it has to be built down to a price that the middle classes can afford. That is what Beneteau excels at. Discovery yachts, Fairline, ... less so.

Which boils down to is there room for the existing niche market "small" "Quality" 50 to 65 foot yachts in Europe.

Just to bring it back on track you could add any number of British yacht manufacturers that have not been able to make a success out of their business and for that mater motor car manufacturers. So what is really the problem.

 

[westernman]

Which boils down to is there room for the existing niche market "small" "Quality" 50 to 65 foot yachts in Europe.

Just to bring it back on track you could add any number of British yacht manufacturers that have not been able to make a success out of their business and for that mater motor car manufacturers. So what is really the problem.

If they charge the price they need to to have a comfortable operating margin, the niche is too small or non-existant.

If they lower the price to what the nice market is prepared to pay, they do not have enough of a differentiator vs Beneteau, Bavaria etc to stay in business.

To charge 2 x on the selling price, you need to be a hell of a lot better than just a bit on the perceived quality. Particularly at around the 50ft mark which is not really big enough for a real luxury product.