Exploding the red diesel myth

[c_j]

The red fuel debate always seems to bring out the same old myths about fuel.

The options are:

Red Diesel AKA Pink, Gas Oil, 28 Second Oil
This is Derv with a dye additive to show its Tax free status

Derv
This is Diesel fuel for Roadgoing Vehicles and is identical in every way to Red Diesel above except that it does not have the added red dye.

Heating Oil
This is Kerosene

As you can see Heating Oil and Red diesel are not the same. Red diesel or "gas oil" has different burning properties rated as 28 second oil. If you use Gas oil in your Home heating system it requires preheating so as to allow ignition. I did this for a few years but the additional cost of boiler service fitted with a pre-heater negated the advantage in fuel price. I understand that Heating oil (kerosene) therefore ignites more readily probably due to the viscosity and I would never use it in a modern diesel engine.

The construction industry including all plant on building sites, Road building, quarries (I would know) and mines use red diesel. Derv is the taxed equivilant for road going vehicles.

I have identical modern engines in Volvo Trucks as Road transport using derv and Volvo Plant in quarries using red. The spec is the same, the only difference is the dye used to show that the tax is not paid.

Gas oil bought this month for plant cost 15.5p per litre plus VAT

Our current position within the EU on Red diesel is that it was a Concession granted when our entry into Europe was negotiated and it is reconsidered every 7 years.
We have been given this concession for a further 7years from last year. It will I understand be reconsidered in 2005.

The impact on the Construction industry would be catastophic if the concession were withdrawn.

When we buy Derv in bulk the tax is not shown seperately and I think it unlikely that a fuel rebate system would be introduced.

Happy New Year.

CJ
chris@stone.uk.com

 

[Gludy]

Thank you for that very clear explanation. I now understand. This is why I had a problem wehn using my fuel from my red deisel tank in my central heating! It also means that we should not be using central heating fuel in marine engines.

Could you please tell me if there is a red deisel in France i.e. does their construction industry have it?

As I understand the issue there seems to be no danger of the farming industry losing red deisel, so surely they cannot just be so stupid as to leave the concession for them alone? .... thinking about it, the probably can be that stupid...can't they?


Paul

 

[david_bagshaw]

Gas oil does not need pre heating to burn in a domestic boiler,

we have had a red oil burning trianco for 20 years which burnt it , indeed the present house has 2 oil burners both of which can burn either kero or gasoil, the only change being the size of the nozzle & pump pressure., & the air flow setting.

Use of kero in engines, increases pump wear, & gives a distinctive exhaust smell, bit like that near airports, and is frequently used by cheap cab companies to save money, take note the next time you are in birmingham.

Also kero is permitted as an additive to derv in low temps to help prevention of waxing, where fule duty laws allow it, ie not as a road fuel , but ok on Boats etc, by MB, VW, & if i remember correctly Sabre. ( a safer addition for boats)
In road veh petrol can be added upto about 15%. for the same purpose

Incidently we have run all our boat engines on red , sourced either from our boiler tank, or tanker or quayside supplier for a total of over 20,000 hrs with no ill effect.

As a last thought, nevermind all the constructioin industry, farmers, bargees, fishermen, all using red.



David
www.yachtman.co.uk

ps thinking about it the engine hour fig would be closer to 30,000 hrs, 2x80 in the first boat 2x 150s plus 2x generators in the second

 

[billskip]

in Greece the dye is green..it can be used for heating and airconditioning but not for the engine ..I think some will carry on using red and hop they will not get stopped as they do id their diesel cars..as in greece if your boat is a buisness..or your car you can allways claim back the vat...do they charge tax on fuel for private use of airplanes??? I allways was told 28 second was derv and 32 second was heating( or vicky-verky) so there is a difference...Happy new year ..Bill

 

[Geoffs]

Oh dear we do go round in circles. Sorry to say Chris, you may have confused things a little.

There are two classes of heating systems. Smaller domestic units are vapourising and use kerosene, which as you say should not be used in diesel engines. Larger domestic and industrial burners are pressure jet, these usually burn red gas oil.

Gas oil used for heating is often burnt in engines, but will be smokier than gas oil intended for engines. It has a lower Cetane number, a measure of diesel fuel quality, a bit like Octane number for petrol. DERV is a bit different, it has a gas oil base, but will have other additives, one company even added a perfume to try and make it smell nice. Cold flow improver will also be added, to help stop waxing in cold weather. DERV may, depending on refiner, have lower sulphur content, with a lubricity additive to counter loss of lubrication given by sulphur.

Ideally Gas Oil CI should be used for compression ignition (Diesel) engines. Use red gas oil in a road vehicle at your peril, Customs and Excise can confiscate the vehicle. Having said that, I've only been stopped once by customs, in 30 years of diesel motoring. I kept the car!

What will happen if marine desel is taxed? will Customs check boat fuel, the thought of 1/4 million pound boat being confiscated is a bit alarming.

 

[oldgit]

Re: construction on the continent

How do construction companies manage to run their plant and make a profit when no "Red" fuel tax break available elsewhere in EEC.

 

[hlb]

Re: So To Summerise

You can use heating oil, Maybe.
Its the same. But different, probably!
Then again you can run on keresine. But shshsh dont tell anyone. ( Add hydraulic oil, then everithing runs ok).
So to conclude, it rather depends what you run the central heating off.
Now you could use wood or coal. But then you'd need a steam engine.
Calor gas would work. But then you'd need a petrol engine to convert.
Now the old Royal Yacht used heavy oil. That's why it was usless for the Falklands or any other usefull perpose. Cos nowt else did.
But what the hell. You can still ring up for the tanker and just tell him. "Red diesel please." It's not rocket science.

Haydn

 

[Geoffs]

Re: construction on the continent

Bl**dy good question. Mind you don’t forget other EC countries don’t have such a punitive tax system on their fuel. We have to suffer 200% tax on road fuel, where most other countries seem to be able to limit it to 100%, max. We even have to pay VAT on duty, a taxed tax! And to think this is all, probably, coming to boat fuel. About time the peasants were revolting, again.

Oh, and a HAPPY NEW YEAR to everyone.

 

[Guest]

Re: construction on the continent

Hi oldgit(im shure your not) I found that diesel is a different price in eu for heating and industry..its just that you dont have the luxury of being allowed to use it for private or pleasure perposes.as in uk...so when uk come in line with eu we will have to find another private pleasure...


HNY Beth

Beth

 

[longjohnsilver]

Re: construction on the continent

Welcome to the forum Beth, Oldgit can be as miserable as, well, a miserable old git.

What were the price differentials you found in the EU between private and pleasure purposes.

 

[Guest]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am in the plant game also, I was led to believe that gas oil/ red diesel was far less refined than derv/ white diesel, what I mean is that the sulphur content in red is greater than white in terms of parts per million, PPM figures hence fuel burn content/performance/ mpg is better with white than red.

Perhaps someone can answer this, as I have spoken to engine manufacturers before about this when they quote horsepower figures they are with the best refined fuel, Caterpillar test and match pairs of engines to within a very close percentage for marine application, this is where I got my info after running 2 Cats previously in another boat, I know that other well known engine makers are not so dilligent in what they sell to the builders, hence any pair will go together.

Paul js.

 

[byron]

None the wiser

So! after all the argy bargy I'm none the wiser. Can I use heating oil or not?

ô¿ô

 

[hlb]

Re: None the wiser

Just carry on using coal Byron.

Haydn

 

[Geoffs]

Re: None the wiser

Well Byron, not a simple yes or no, never is, is there? So yes you can use heating GAS OIL, but as I've said, it will be smokier, probably involve higher engine maintenance costs, (more frequent oil changes, premature injector fouling etc.).

If you've got a tank of heating oil, going cheap, well, I'd be tempted to bung it in. If you are ordering a bulk supply, it's worth asking the distributor for Gas Oil CI. If a small one thay'll probably say, 'Eh???'. But a larger one should understand.

If using heating oil, keep an eye on the oil condition using the blotting paper test I mentioned a while back (happy to repeat, if can't remember!). It's not a difinitive oil analysis, but gives an idea of how the detergent and dispersent additives are doing. It shouldn't be used to extend oil drain intervals.

Don't want to confuse things, but as with most technical issues, there's never a straight answer. Happy New Year, hope the river is not frozen.

 

[DepSol]

Re: None the wiser

Thanks for that Geoff. This is what I have been saying (but not as accurately as you have put it) that the fisherman etc in Guernsey have been doing. This is why I have been called out to some of them and have recommended Soltron to them as this improves the quality of the Gas Oil they use. This comes from the tanker that supplies fuel to domestic houses for central heating therefore, they get it cheaper. By the way Soltron is wrapped in Kerosene so has another added benefit of reducing the 'waxing' in cold temperatures.

As you all know by now Soltron reduces emissions and stops the build up of black marks on your transom, so a cleaner boat with less scrubbing to do.

Oh dear just realised I broke my new years resolution, ah well I wasnt going to give up drinking either!

Dom

 

[c_j]

The European pricing for Diesel fuel as far as I know has no concessions to the Plant and Construction industry but as it is normally at least 20p per litre cheaper across the board perhaps it is not so important.

And sure I can see our Goverment reducing fuel prices across the board if the concession were withdrawn

I was trying to dispel the myth that in some way Gas oil is inferior to Derv and the same as heating oil.

(I should have said that Gas Oil requires preheating in Domestic heating systems that are designed to run on kerosene.)

The point I was making was that Volvo, Caterpillar et al are totally satisfied to see Gas Oil used as the fuel in modern heavy plant and can have no detrimental effect when compared with derv.

Kero (heating oil) they would not.

Thats not to say that it will not work and that it may go on working for years.

But I would'nt.



CJ
chris@stone.uk.com

 

[Geoffs]

Re: None the wiser

Good point Dom, Soltron may well act as a Cetane improver for Heating Gas Oil, thus improving emissions, and maybe help keep engine cleaner. No experience of this, though, I've only used with DERV and Petrol.

The dosing of Soltron is so low, that I doubt the Kero wrapper has any effect on waxing. Unless you're going boating in less than about -10 deg C, probably not a problem. Boat fuel systems are better protected from the elements than road vehicles.

 

[Guest]

Re: construction on the continent

Hi longjohn(??) one definatly gets more for their money..about 35%..now about oldgit....

Beth

Beth

 

[oldgit]

Re: hello beth

If you take the first letter from the following words.....generous,kind.forgiving.handsome.inteey intelagent,entalogent,err..clever,patient and honest. It makes up the word Oldgit.Simple really.

 

[ChrisP]

Re: hello beth

And I thought I was dyslexic.