Expected forces on reefing lines ?

BlowingOldBoots said:
You don't need to try and catch anything or work on a flogging sail. Once the second reef is in you undo the first and tie it to the messenger, then pull it through the 3rd reef cringle and make off around the boom.
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I know the theory, but in practice an incorrigible optimist will decide it can't possibly get any worse and will postpone the operation. And of course you need to have a messenger rigged.


- W
 
Boo2 said:
Hi,

I've given up on single line reefing for the mainsail of my UFO 34 and am trying to find ways of getting in 6 off rope clutches each side of the coachroof so I can fit twin line reefing instead. By twin line I mean one line at the luff of the main and another separate line at the leech.

The problem I have is there's not very much room between the grab rail and the side of the main hatch so I need the smaller design of clutch like the Lewmar D1 or Bartons 550. From reading around I understand the Lewmar is preferable over the Bartons but first I need to know what the holding force I need in a clutch for twin line reefing ? Both the types I'm considering have holding forces around 500kg which is around half what the bigger clutches can handle.

Any advice gratefully received,

Boo2
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I had the same problem single handing a 44footer.
I had a large hook on a short line fitted on the boom .This hook then held the leech down onto the boom by inserting the hook into the leech cringles similar to a outhaul
Okay the reef was a little higher than standard but not a lot.
 
webcraft said:
I know the theory, but in practice an incorrigible optimist will decide it can't possibly get any worse and will postpone the operation. And of course you need to have a messenger rigged.


- W
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A permanently rigged 3rd reef is a lot of string thrashing about.
It will tangle and cause problems 10 times more often than you use it in most people's cases.

A messenger of light line or thin shock cord, rigged as a loop between reefs 2 and 3 is easy to use. If you whip the ends of the reef lines with a loop to pull it through, easier still!
 
Just to clarify on third reefing
(The trouble with these t'internet things is one might just possibly send someone out there with half understood untried ideas, stated as cast iron fact,hey ho).

I would second what both Blowing and WebC say..Be aware of wot goes wrong at the most importune moment..and be proactive..


Quite possibly if I go offshore for long enough I will rig the third permanenty, as reefing becomes part of the weeks normal chores possibly, but its a lorra string when hoisting and lowering full sail in sunny UK summer weather:)
 
My half tonner is a well known Syd/Hob racer under the previous owners and I have inherited a 3 reef twin line reefing system. Cabin top in front of me I have 4 winches, outer two for halyards, inner two for reefing. Each reefing line comes through jammers to the winch and there is a cleat behind each winch. In practice the strain is held by the winch and cleat, its only when going for the extra reef the strain is taken by the jammer. The system is easy to use sailing singlehanded and I always keep the 3rd reefing lines rove. The lines are colour coded with the 3rd one red. Left hand side of the cabin are luff lines with the leech on the right, first reef outer and work your way in to the third. I use a topping lift but a fixed boom/gas strut would make the system perfect.
 
lw395 said:
A permanently rigged 3rd reef is a lot of string thrashing about.
It will tangle and cause problems 10 times more often than you use it in most people's cases.
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I find that a strange statement - unless you spend a lot of time with your mainsail flogging uncontrollably for some reason. Why on earth should it 'thrash about'? Ours never does, and has never tangled.

reefinglines.jpg


- W
 
Must admit I am in the rig third reef when required camp. In fact present main does not even have one, racing boat so why should it is the response!

Next main will have it and I will rereeve the first reef the day its required. It might take some antics I might even have to drop the main.

Hell if weather is that bad she might be better without it :confused:, I hope not to be out in weather like that as well. Although as some will point out it could happen and I have thought about it and decided I should not be there...


I still think the OP would be better off keeping it all at the mast, simpler less rope less to go wrong, less friction.

Certainly I am minimalist less IS better IMO on this one.
 
I have managed to sail 4 seasons ( around tropical uk coasts too) without donning waterproof trousers or sea boots , perhaps that is why I like all the string in the cockpit, ESP if groggy at night. All IMO ' natch.

But then , I was spoiled by owning a wee junk rig for some years...nip out of bunk,half asleep, keep one eye closed,( that really works btw),'reef', back into bunk, boat rolls off another few tradewind miles zzzzzz:) magic:)
 
webcraft said:
I find that a strange statement - unless you spend a lot of time with your mainsail flogging uncontrollably for some reason. Why on earth should it 'thrash about'? Ours never does, and has never tangled.

reefinglines.jpg


- W
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If it's tight enough not to rattle against the sail, it's tight enough to be distorting the sail in light airs. That's wear and tear on the stitching etc.
When you drop the sail, or put the first reef in, there is another string to snag on things in the dark.
Looking at your picture, your third reef is not that deep though?
I'm used to ex-racing boats where the third reef is nearly half way up the sail.
I've rigged them a lot more times than I've used them.
 
I currently have my third reefing line permanently rigged and, as others have said, it makes for a lot of line flailing about. I'd like to try the idea of using a messager line (is that the phrase?) to thread one of the other reefing lines through the 3rd reef's leech cringle as advocated by lw395. In my case I'd probably use the flattening reef's line as this is most accessible when the first two reefs are pulled down. My question is: how do you reach the boom to operate the system? If hove-to the outer end of the boom is over the sea on my boat and close-hauled it's over the quarter. I wouldn't fancy standing balanced on the side deck or cockpit seat reaching upwards and outwards to do tricky rope work on the boom while the boat is being thrown about in 3rd reef conditions. Admittedly I'm a bit of a cripple with a poor sense of balance. How do others manage this?
 
JimC said:
I currently have my third reefing line permanently rigged and, as others have said, it makes for a lot of line flailing about. I'd like to try the idea of using a messager line (is that the phrase?) to thread one of the other reefing lines through the 3rd reef's leech cringle as advocated by lw395. In my case I'd probably use the flattening reef's line as this is most accessible when the first two reefs are pulled down. My question is: how do you reach the boom to operate the system? If hove-to the outer end of the boom is over the sea on my boat and close-hauled it's over the quarter. I wouldn't fancy standing balanced on the side deck or cockpit seat reaching upwards and outwards to do tricky rope work on the boom while the boat is being thrown about in 3rd reef conditions. Admittedly I'm a bit of a cripple with a poor sense of balance. How do others manage this?
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Possibly it's not right for you on your boat.
On my boat, close (ish) hauled, the boom could be reached standing on the cockpit seat and hooked on securely.
You don't need to reach the end of the boom, just where the first reef is tied on.
 
I'm thinking of not pernamently rigging my third reef , but only rigging it prior to a longer trip or when **** weather is in the forecast.
 
If you rig a 3mm messenger from second to third cringle and back, with a snappy little snap shackle too if one likes, - could even be a continuous LOOP-, and have a wee eye whipped onto the end of the third actual reefing line, then feeding the line up thru back down and thence tied off ready for action should cause no grief.
To be honest whenever I look at mine I think I will also put a good stout lashing through the cringle and around the boom once the third reef is in, this seems much kinder on the whole assembly, engineeringwise tho crude.:D
 
lw395 said:
A permanently rigged 3rd reef is a lot of string thrashing about.
It will tangle and cause problems 10 times more often than you use it in most people's cases.

A messenger of light line or thin shock cord, rigged as a loop between reefs 2 and 3 is easy to use. If you whip the ends of the reef lines with a loop to pull it through, easier still!
Click to expand...
I have to agree with Webcraft - I have 4 reefs all continuously rigged and, providing you're reasonably self-disciplined there is no problem with "string thrashing around".

However my first two reefs are single line and that does involve a lot of string in the cockpit when both are in.

As to rigging a messenger and putting in your last reef when you need it ..

All I'll say is I too started with that delusion - after the first time of attempting to rig the last reef I finally got into port and, very chastened, put in the permanaent last reef line.
 
jimi said:
I'm thinking of not pernamently rigging my third reef , but only rigging it prior to a longer trip or when **** weather is in the forecast.
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If you have the room to rig it full time then I would. The safest job is the one you don't do.

I always rig it if I can; as said previously its not always possible on many booms. If cruising I will take the flattener out of use full time in preference and rig the 3rd reef.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
If you have the room to rig it full time then I would. The safest job is the one you don't do.

I always rig it if I can; as said previously its not always possible on many booms. If cruising I will take the flattener out of use full time in preference and rig the 3rd reef.
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My third reef is'nt single line, so I was thinking of doing the opposite and using the 3rd reef clew line for the flattener. TBH, itll have to be blowing over 35knots before I'll need the 3rd reef.
 
Reply from Lewmar

Just to say I had a reply from Lewmar saying their D1 clutches should be man enough for the job, confirming Stork_III's and other posters comments.

Thanks to all for the interesting replies,

Boo2
 
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