Excited and happy ( but a little bit scared)

Last thought; ref where to look for broken dream boats
- Chaguaramas, Trinidad
- Bocas del Toro, Panama (over 40% of all the boats in the marinas there are for sale - source - Bocas Marina manager in 2015)
- Grenada.
- Sint Maarten, probably not as big a selection of boats as the three places above.

One of the problems of selling a boat in any of the above places is that a potential buyer is very, very unlikely to fly from the USA to say Trinidad to look at two or three boats when he can fly to Fort Lauderdale and view hundreds of boats and still be able to get a super-sized double big cheese Big Mac for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Just as an example, last year a Lagoon 440 was sold in Bocas del Toro, Panama for US$180,000. The buyer bought it sight-unseen. He then took a leisurely month to sail it back to Florida and sold it for US$350,000.
 
Stingo many thanks for your advice.
I was thinking myself of possible poor checking of hose clamps as a cause. But i do not know the owners and have no idea what their maintenance regime was like. Very entertainingly put scenario of little Timmy which has lightened what is turning out to be a very thought provoking day.
As regards to the 'third world' bit of your post I think we've got it covered. We have both lived together deep in the jungles of the Nicaraguan/Honduras border and indeed raised a child there ( well semi raised as he went mostly feral) :-)
We are no strangers to the rigours of living amongst the poorest ( and generally the nicest) humans on the planet. Travelling around South/Central America on a motorcycle taught us a great respect for the deadly yellow chicken buses.
In fact we liked it so much we got married on the Isla Juan Venado ( in the Pacific side ) and own properties there to this day. Sounds a bit posh that ( properties) so i will amend to scruffy bits of beach and a shack next to a marina. :-)
We have never lived aboard a yacht (6 weeks being our longest stint) so your points about anchoring times and requirements have just joined our growing notebook books.
We have decided this evening that we are going to continue with the survey as yes we have paid a deposit on her and we will decide when we have a better understanding.
In our contract it states that we can be refunded our deposit if structural problems are found. Words to that effect. So what does this include?
Say for example all the seacocks need replacing? Or prop shaft is bent?
I have tried Google but got so many conflicting replies i thought maybe you guys/girls would have an idea?
 
It does sound like you will fit in well with us manky, long-term cruisers. If you ever come across a catamaran called Stingo, it is very likely to be me. Come over, introduce yourself, remind me of this thread and tell me all about finally getting afloat, all while we drink several beers.
 
Malabarista said:
In our contract it states that we can be refunded our deposit if structural problems are found. Words to that effect. So what does this include?
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Ask your surveyor, he'll be able to advise. I'd have thought that the conflicting details on the engine, plus the reported RNLI rescues on two occasions when the boat was sinking, would be enough to secure the return of your deposit. If the worst comes to the worst, just walk away and lose your deposit rather than going ahead with a purchase which you could regret.
 
Absolute last thoughts - before the sea trial and survey, re-read this entire thread because there are plenty of sound ideas.
 
I'd also go and have a chat with a few of the blokes who work in the boatyard. People like Dave Hancock built the Moody's and tend to keep up with the gossip about them. If you do decide to go ahead, I'd ask Dave, 07852 228853 to run over all the systems, he has 30 yards experence fixing them, so knows what tends to go wrong.
 
Malabarista said:
In our contract it states that we can be refunded our deposit if structural problems are found. Words to that effect. So what does this include?
Say for example all the seacocks need replacing? Or prop shaft is bent?
I have tried Google but got so many conflicting replies i thought maybe you guys/girls would have an idea?
Click to expand...

You will get conflicting views as it all depends on the facts of the case. You have a standard contract and it is not possible in advance to specify specifically reasons for withdrawing. You have to recognise, as I suggested earlier that you are buying a cheap project boat so you cannot expect everything to be perfect. The items you mention would not normally be good reasons, but may, if they were not obvious, be a basis for renegotiation on the price. You are buying as seen with no guarantees from the vendor or broker. You have enough in the broker's description to flag up specific areas of the boat that require close inspection (the major work on the hull, replacement engine, refurbished deck, known partial flooding on two occasions etc) and your surveyor is there to give you an honest opinion of whether you should buy the boat.

So, it is down to your collective judgement as to whether there is anything serious discovered in the survey that would change your decision about whether you want to take it on for the price you agreed. The seller equally will know that he is selling a boat with a history and lots of work required so hopefully he will be realistic. If you do withdraw you will lose the cost of your survey and possibly the deposit if you can't agree that the discovered faults were serious. Could be a "cheap" lesson!

There is little you can do to avoid this kind of uncertainty - just all part and parcel of buying an old boat from a private person.
 
All fair enough, but if the survey exposes something that has not been disclosed by the broker or seller, then the buyer has a valid reason to pull out, no matter how trivial the undisclosed problem. Well, that was my understanding when I bought my first boat and explained to me by Ancasta (sp); a handy get out of jail card, with the only risk being the cost of an expensive surveyor.
 
stingo said:
Absolute last thoughts - before the sea trial and survey, re-read this entire thread because there are plenty of sound ideas.
Click to expand...

Thanks again. I am busy writing all the good stuff I have received into our trusty notebooks and photographing the pages.
 
Can I respectfully disagree with a couple of points :)
Certainly you cannot expect a new or perfect boat and not all defects amount to 'material defects' (which is the term used in the standard contract).
However, once the contract is signed, it is only 'material defects' in the boat or her inventory that matter. If they were notified in advance in writing then they do not count; if not then they are counted in.
Therefore the fact that some defect may or may not be obvious is irrelevant under the contract if it was not notified in writing to the purchaser prior to signing the agreement. If it is a cheap project boat then the vendor can chose to identify in writing in advance of the contract all the bad points he knows of and he will be protected from those specified thereafter (that is how the contract is supposed to work and provide clarity). Notification of prior work undertaken or matters that require inspection does not amount to notice of 'material defects'.

Therefore if something is not a material defect, then it is not capable of justifying a renegotiation on price. It is irrelevant. There is no middle ground where you negotiate the price down (or reject the boat) for a non-material defect.

In my judgement, a defective seacock or a bent propshaft would certainly amount to a 'material defect' [It is a defect which is 'material' in the sense that it cannot be ignored, one goes to safety and one to the proper operation of the boat and neither are trifling.]

If it is a material defect then notification under clause 5 (a) or (b) may be given within the time specified.

Now, that is how the contract should work. What happens in practice may be more fluid, I accept.

Tranona said:
You will get conflicting views as it all depends on the facts of the case. You have a standard contract and it is not possible in advance to specify specifically reasons for withdrawing. You have to recognise, as I suggested earlier that you are buying a cheap project boat so you cannot expect everything to be perfect. The items you mention would not normally be good reasons, but may, if they were not obvious, be a basis for renegotiation on the price. You are buying as seen with no guarantees from the vendor or broker. You have enough in the broker's description to flag up specific areas of the boat that require close inspection (the major work on the hull, replacement engine, refurbished deck, known partial flooding on two occasions etc) and your surveyor is there to give you an honest opinion of whether you should buy the boat.

So, it is down to your collective judgement as to whether there is anything serious discovered in the survey that would change your decision about whether you want to take it on for the price you agreed. The seller equally will know that he is selling a boat with a history and lots of work required so hopefully he will be realistic. If you do withdraw you will lose the cost of your survey and possibly the deposit if you can't agree that the discovered faults were serious. Could be a "cheap" lesson!

There is little you can do to avoid this kind of uncertainty - just all part and parcel of buying an old boat from a private person.
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Unless something really serious is indicated by the surveyor the probable "get out of jail card" invoked by the broker would be to insist on setting whatever it is right at no expense to the buyer.
 
I would think that items you need to ask the seller are... but not limited to...
1. How does the dual battery system work and charge. ie VSR or 1,2,both switch or even another battery for anchor winch
2. Can the fuel tank be drained from the bottom to remove moisture and gunk. Has he ever done it or does he add biocide.
3. How does the reefing work get him to show you.
4. What about instruments? Does he have instruction manuals for things like chart plotter?
Just a few things you might need to know about once he has gone olewill
 
Malabarista said:
.... and photographing the pages.
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No need for that. Go to your very first post in this thread, just above it look for 'Thread tools', click on 'printable version'....
I suspect that you'll be able to work out what to do from there...
 
Malabarista said:
Thanks Norman for the encouraging words. The engine is not so old and looks like the cleanest part of the boat.
The windlass is a 9 years old Lofrans which looks to be in very good condition although we have not had the opportunity to test. Which raises a question. How would a surveyor test the windlass and check the chain condition without dumping it in a pile on the riverbed? Mmm sounds like i need some research
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Good luck with your journey. As you already know an old boat is going to be an on going update.
I'm experiencing the old boat syndrome, gear will breakdown even though it worked perfectly when you bought her, items you've missed etc etc but at the end of the day what you're doing I believe is a good way as in my case I know every (well nearly) system onboard with a practical experience on how to fault find and repair.
The boat you're buying is a good boat and will take you where you want safely and in comfort.
Only advice I can give is make sure the other half likes her, if she loves her, the expense of updating will be a breeze.

Good luck
 
I don't think anyone has mentioned the fuel tank/tanks themselves as yet and although the surveyor may have access to them its likely to be very limited .On a boat of that age Id want to ask when/ if they've been changed if you can't tell by looking .Not sure where the tanks are on this boat but my pals Moody 38 required extensive joinery work removal before the tank could be removed .They may well have been changed but definitely worth checking .Our 1989 Moody still had a galvanised tank which began leaking whilst we owned her ,.
 
any standard survey will exclude areas of the boat that the surveyor cannot easily see without dismantling lockers, headlinings, etc. These may hide all kinds of problems which might appear later (corroded wiring, old soaked woodwork, rusting chainplates, leaking water pipes, ttc). You should be clear what the surveyor is and is not going to do.

An old boat will need especial attention to the electrics, and I'd be inclined to either get a boat electrician to survey that side.

Previous comments abut a specialist rigger to check the mast and rigging are echoed (the insurance may insist on replacement of really old parts).

Any steel or alloy tanks ? Do they have inspection ports and can they be checked for corrosion ?

Have you got an endoscope (about £40 for a decent one) and a laptop so that you can check remote components ?


What's the state of the anodes ? Are they all connected properly ?


Can you see the propeller and shaft with the boat dried out ? Cutless bearing - if fitted - OK ?

Make sure that the sails are closely checked, and hoisted to shake out the moths.


Run water from the fresh tanks and see if it tastes OK and is clear. Does the pressure pump / accumulator work properly, or is it constantly on and off ?

.
Ask the surveyor to show you reports of similar sized boats he has recently surveyed. You will then have a standard against which to decide the areas and intensity of the survey you are commissioning.

You need a detailed inventory of all the fittings, serial numbers, age, and working condition.


What skillsets do you have between you, to spend 3 -4 years refurbishing a big boat, and what tools and workshop area are presently available ? Are there any areas (e.g. upholstery, sail repairs or electrics) that you would have to outsource ? . More importantly , what spare TIME do you have over the next 3 -4 years, and that includes travelling time.


I've no doubt the boat could be brought back to really good condition, but the expenditure of time and money will be a significant one, and your first step of a professional survey may make you feel more committed to the boat than you should be if you were being truly objective. Perhaps grab a passing forumite with good experience of Moodys or similar, to spend an hour on board, and then make a verbal report to you.



I think you need an emotional reality check, or a copy of a set of project management tasks from an organised and experienced boat yard , and set hours and £££s against each part of the project.
 
I would like to thank everyone who posted advice on this first ever post of mine. Now please could someone ask a question that I may have some idea of the answer to so that I can pretend I am clever.
Thanks peeps I will surely be back after the Friday survey to let you know whether we own a boat or not.
 
Malabarista said:
I would like to thank everyone who posted advice on this first ever post of mine. Now please could someone ask a question that I may have some idea of the answer to so that I can pretend I am clever.
Thanks peeps I will surely be back after the Friday survey to let you know whether we own a boat or not.
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Why did it almost sink twice? Shows you've done some background.
 
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