Excited and happy ( but a little bit scared)

Thanks Richard we have been working towards our dream for a long time now and have carefully considered most of the downsides of an older yacht. ( we hope). As we are not in a position to buy a new ( er) boat we decided to buy this one and take 3-4 ( or longer if needed) years to spread the costs and get her exactly how we want her to be. We also need to wait until our youngest has gone to university before we can rent out the house, handover the business and wave bye bye.
 
Malabarista said:
Thanks for the advice. We are hoping that the survey will pick up the expensive stuff and we may have to sell our children. Is that permitted on the forum?
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Definitely sell the children. The boat will be much more fun! Don't let the naysayers put yoou off a 44 foot boat as your first one. You have more experience than I had when I bought a 45 footer at the age of 60. As others have said maintenance will be heavy on an older boat. Aside from the engine which is a very big cost if it needs replacing, the rigging and the sails are the next big expenses. Do try to test the anchor windlass as a new one is expensive, and look at the condition of the chain. The other big potential cost is replacement of electronics if the existing equipment is outdated.
 
Thanks Norman for the encouraging words. The engine is not so old and looks like the cleanest part of the boat.
The windlass is a 9 years old Lofrans which looks to be in very good condition although we have not had the opportunity to test. Which raises a question. How would a surveyor test the windlass and check the chain condition without dumping it in a pile on the riverbed? Mmm sounds like i need some research
 
I echo oldbilbos comments and sentiments above. Exciting times! The Dictaphone suggestion is very good as taking notes will shorten the time available for talking dramatically. Also take a camera.
First thing I would do is join the Moody Owners Association and ask the same questions there. There is a guest member level which gives you access to lots of information and you can ask questions of existing owners pre buying the boat. You can also look at all the archives for information and questions about this model in the past. www.moodyowners.org
I've just gone through process of buying a Moody 44 but 1997 version and not my first boat. I spent 2 days crawling over the boat (low confidence in surveyors) then several conversations with the old owner. Getting the old owner to be available for later questions is important on a boat this size and especially the age of yours. I'm sure you will have lots more questions after a month of ownership.
Good luck and hope all goes well
 
Malabarista said:
She is a Moody 44' Ketch and quite an old girl.
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If the boat is "Border Collie", I think you'll find that it was a bare hull which was DIY-completed. You might want to ask your surveyor about this. The boat was also rescued by the RNLI in 2011 after it started taking on water, so again your surveyor might want to check for potential water damage to the structure.

Edit: It seems the boat was rescued a second time by the RNLI in 2014, when once again it was taking on water and in danger of sinking. Looks fairly waterlogged...

Border%20Collie-Large.jpg
 
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Malabarista said:
Thanks Norman for the encouraging words. The engine is not so old and looks like the cleanest part of the boat.
The windlass is a 9 years old Lofrans which looks to be in very good condition although we have not had the opportunity to test. Which raises a question. How would a surveyor test the windlass and check the chain condition without dumping it in a pile on the riverbed? Mmm sounds like i need some research
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Can't claim anything like the experience of some on here, but our first boat 3 1/2 years ago was a 44ft Sunbeam. I wanted as new as we could afford because of my lack of knowledge of maintainance. 3 1/2 years on I have concluded (I) 44ft is the perfect size for two!; and if I were forced to buy again ( I hope not, as Nooka is a keeper), I would be much less concerned about the age of the hull, and only that the price reflected the age and replacement cost of the component parts. By twenty - thirty years old I would imagine pretty much everything except maybe the engine and teak decks if she has them is going to have been renewed/upgraded/improved by a boat-proud owner at least once.
 
pvb said:
If the boat is "Border Collie", I think you'll find that it was a bare hull which was DIY-completed. You might want to ask your surveyor about this. The boat was also rescued by the RNLI in 2011 after it started taking on water, so again your surveyor might want to check for potential water damage to the structure.
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In OP's post on page two it states the engine was replaced in 2011. Possibly a coincidence.

You need to be clear what the surveyor is responsible for and what they are not. They are unlikely to responsible for the engine (hence the trials) and possibly the rigging (depending where you bought it and the surveyor). The sea trial is your last trial and therefore try out everything possible particularly the items the surveyor is not responsible for.

As to an engine trial, I would insist that it was started from cold in front of me and I would place my hand on the engine to check it was cold. I would want to see how it started. Later I would want to see it at full revs for some time to ensure it functioned properly. Check the charging and cooling system. I do not anticipate a problem with a 2011 Yanmar but you never know.

Check the bilges before you start off and after the sea trial.

If the rigging is not covered by the surveyor, do please get it checked by a rigger. This was my position and I did get it checked by professional riggers once in the water (the first point the marina would allow anyone up the mast) and they found a wrong pin or fitting at the top of the forestay - this was a purchase from a meticulous owner who would definitely not have scrimped on anything.
 
Poecheng said:
And a slightly different version on the Apolloduck version of the advert for the same boat - fitted 2008 with new stern gear and mounts in 2011
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Seems there are a few question marks over this boat. It was on the market in Jan 2014 at £60K, in Dec 2014 at £65K, and now it's down to £35K. I do hope the OP is suitably cautious - I think I'd run away from it.
 
pvb said:
If the boat is "Border Collie", I think you'll find that it was a bare hull which was DIY-completed. You might want to ask your surveyor about this. The boat was also rescued by the RNLI in 2011 after it started taking on water, so again your surveyor might want to check for potential water damage to the structure.

Edit: It seems the boat was rescued a second time by the RNLI in 2014, when once again it was taking on water and in danger of sinking. Looks fairly waterlogged...

Border%20Collie-Large.jpg
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Er…beginning to think she has a curse. Or maybe poor maintenance. I have been unable to find the cause of the leak in 2014 incident. I have sent both the articles to the surveyor ( as a heads up) and to the broker for further details needed.
Thanks again for the info. This is a GREAT forum
 
Hi PVB thanks for your research. I now have quite a number of questions for the broker. She is stated in the sale details we had as having an engine ( reconditioned ) in 2016. In earlier adverts this was done in 2008. I find it difficult to believe that someone would put an engine in and not replace the mounts that needed replacing 3yrs later. Unless she has had 2 engines in 7 years something doesn't stack. It was my error she was built in 1978
Not as previously stated.
We have not dealt directly with the owners but through a broker. Is the fact that she has been rescued twice something that should have been brought up by him or am i being naive?
We checked the bilges last weekend when we had a good look around and there was a small quantity of oily water in there. As the batteries had been removed for several weeks we assumed that as there would be no automatic bilge pumps running this was acceptable. It was up to the second knuckle of my forefinger.
We are now planning to visit her again tomorrow to have another look given the information we have received today. All a bit worrisome really.
I am so grateful to everybody for helping me to look at this purchase in a much less emotive way. I admit i was getting a bit carried away.
I will report in after the survey and seatrial is complete.
 
pvb said:
Seems there are a few question marks over this boat. It was on the market in Jan 2014 at £60K, in Dec 2014 at £65K, and now it's down to £35K. I do hope the OP is suitably cautious - I think I'd run away from it.
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Me as well. When searching for our Liveaboard boat I spent nearly two years searching to find the right boat. (we had specific needs due wifes disabilities) During that time I saw & inspected over 200 boats & as time went by I watched as they were often moved round the coast & re-advertised with a different broker at a lower price. Often quite dramatically, it would seem just to shift them. Might be worth asking the seller if he has all the previous 'Bills of Sale'.
So to the OP I would repeat what I believe has already been posted, and suggest you do not let your heart rule your head. Such a shame to ruin you dream before you get started. There are plenty of bargains out there at the moment.
I may be being over cautious but I have come across many boat sales where the new owner has ended up buying a lame duck even having been given good advise not to proceed.
I wish you luck with your intended purchase & hope she lives up to your expectations.
Oh & come & join us. Its a great life :)

Edit to add: I dont know what area you are in but it might be worth a phone call to a number of surveyors in your area to enquire if they have recently carried out a survey on her.
 
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pvb said:
Seems there are a few question marks over this boat. It was on the market in Jan 2014 at £60K, in Dec 2014 at £65K, and now it's down to £35K. I do hope the OP is suitably cautious - I think I'd run away from it.
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Sandyman said:
Me as well. When searching for our Liveaboard boat I spent nearly two years searching to find the right boat. (we had specific needs due wifes disabilities) During that time I saw & inspected over 200 boats & as time went by I watched as they were often moved round the coast & re-advertised with a different broker at a lower price. Often quite dramatically, it would seem just to shift them. Might be worth asking the seller if he has all the previous 'Bills of Sale'.
So to the OP I would repeat what I believe has already been posted, and suggest you do not let your heart rule your head. Such a shame to ruin you dream before you get started. There are plenty of bargains out there at the moment.
I may be being over cautious but I have come across many boat sales where the new owner has ended up buying a lame duck even having been given good advise not to proceed.
I wish you luck with your intended purchase & hope she lives up to your expectations.
Oh & come & join us. Its a great life :)

Edit to add: I dont know what area you are in but it might be worth a phone call to a number of surveyors in your area to enquire if they have recently carried out a survey on her.
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This is really good advice which i thank you for. We are going to sleep tonight much wiser than we were when we awoke this morning. Always a good thing.
The broker has all the bills of sale since 1988 along with the receipts of major purchases. Etc.
We are still going to go ahead with the survey on Thursday/Friday and we will retain the right to walk at this point if we are not completely happy.
As for coming and joining you we are trying believe me. But as someone wiser than I said " if it were easy EVERONE would be doing it"
 
Malabarista said:
Hi PVB thanks for your research. I now have quite a number of questions for the broker. She is stated in the sale details we had as having an engine ( reconditioned ) in 2016. In earlier adverts this was done in 2008. I find it difficult to believe that someone would put an engine in and not replace the mounts that needed replacing 3yrs later. Unless she has had 2 engines in 7 years something doesn't stack. It was my error she was built in 1978
Not as previously stated.
We have not dealt directly with the owners but through a broker. Is the fact that she has been rescued twice something that should have been brought up by him or am i being naive?
We checked the bilges last weekend when we had a good look around and there was a small quantity of oily water in there. As the batteries had been removed for several weeks we assumed that as there would be no automatic bilge pumps running this was acceptable. It was up to the second knuckle of my forefinger.
We are now planning to visit her again tomorrow to have another look given the information we have received today. All a bit worrisome really.
I am so grateful to everybody for helping me to look at this purchase in a much less emotive way. I admit i was getting a bit carried away.
I will report in after the survey and seatrial is complete.
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It seems to me that the boat has had such a strange history that it should perhaps be avoided. Firstly, DIY-built boats aren't necessarily as well-made as production boats, and can be very difficult to re-sell. Secondly, the confusing history of engine/mounts/sterntubes/etc, coupled with 2 instances of serious water ingress, makes you wonder about the quality of maintenance. Thirdly, the fact that it has had flooding on 2 occasions is a concern for deterioration of timber structural items. Fourthly, it seems to have had 2 engines in the last few years. Fifthly, the hull was apparently "completely skimmed and relaid" prior to 2007 - this would have been very costly, and I'd want to know why it was necessary.

Frankly, knowing this, I'd now want to walk away from it, and wouldn't bother spending money on a survey. However, you may well have paid a deposit to the broker, in which case you may need to proceed with the survey in order to have grounds for getting your deposit back. Hopefully, if your surveyor is cooperative, you'll be able to avoid a potentially doubtful purchase.
 
BTW, why have the batteries been removed for several weeks?
She is afloat and in commission and has an engine alternator to charge [2011] batteries even if the battery charger cannot be used.
 
Not unusual for a near 40 year old boat of this type to have a chequered history, but the asking price reflects this. However taking this type of project on is not for the faint hearted and you are likely to need all of your 3 or 4 years time and probably twice or 3 times the purchase price to spend on getting it up to scratch. Overall though, under £100k for a big liveaboard cruising boat is not expensive!

You are going to have to rely on your surveyor, and hopefully he will agree to you going along for both the survey and sea trial. In some ways you are lucky to get a sea trial as often project boats like this are not in the water and seaworthy, so take full advantage of it. Do not be surprised if there is a long list of advisories - it is a "cheap" neglected boat so don't expect everything to work. Pay particular attention to the teak deck. The details says it has been recaulked recently, and that is often a sign that it is on its last legs. spray it with water and watch as it dries looking for areas that do not dry, indicating that water is getting underneath. Look for leaks around the chain plates and deck fittings. Replacing that deck is likely to cost as much as the boat, so consider taking it off completely and refinishing the substrate with epoxy then painting or coating with Kiwigrip. The last thing you want to do when you go on your travels is battle with a leaky teak deck!

Provided you recognise the amount of work involved, this could be a good buy. It is fundamentally a good design and has all the right ingredients for a good long term liveaboard.
 
All this contradictory information does seem to ring alarm bells. Remember the broker has a legal responsibility to divulge any information he has about the boat that may be relevant to you. He can't just answer your questions, he has to actively tell you what he knows about the history of the boat.
I mention this because, as someone said above, you may have paid a deposit. If you have and there is now information you should have been given you can demand your deposit back without having to go to the expense of a survey. Unless, of course, he had told you all that has come out above which seems unlikely.
If you are a member of the RYA they will give you free legal advice about your rights and responsibilities when buying.
Anyway, hope it all works out and it turns out she is the boat for you.
 
Malabarista said:
...Which raises a question. How would a surveyor test the windlass and check the chain condition without dumping it in a pile on the riverbed?
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Yes, he should do exactly that.

A quick point about this particular boat; often a water ingress is caused by a hose clamp failure, especially on an older boat. Hose clamps are notoriously fragile bits of 'safety' equipment and should be checked annually. They are mostly never checked.

There are several other points that I'd like to raise.
- a 44ft boat of that age is not as roomy as a modern 44ft boat and you WILL run out of storage space before you know it.
- Teak decks are terrible in the tropics because they get too hot to walk on.
- The Caribbean is littered with 'broken dreams' and bargain boats. Don't exclude it from your search area. What typically happens is that a couple retire on their dream boat. Meanwhile, back home, Timmy, the little tw*t grandson is about to produce his first tooth and grandma thinks it is a life-threatening event and her presence is absolutely necessary. They put the boat on the hard for "3 months" at around US$400 per month and fly home. Five or so years later, grandpa gives up on any hope of returning to the boat and puts the 'financial drain' on the market. Work that out, just in storage fees, he has spent US$24,000. never mind the compulsory boat yard insurance. That is a guaranteed motive to sell at any price.
- Being a permanent live aboard does not suit everyone, especially true for women.The daily burden of fetching fresh water, not being able to leave lights on, having to catch the local "chicken 'n goat" bus to buy groceries, laundry is a serious hassle. Most cruising is done in places that are mostly 3rd world... Can you adjust to that?
- Once you're cruising permanently, sailing performance becomes very, very secondary. Performance at anchor is what it is all about eg being able to get into and out of the dinghy easily, social space in the cockpit, sun protection with a well ventilated awning/bimini, good ventilation below. By the way, most permanent cruisers spend more than 11 months per year at anchor.
- Several people have suggested that you walk away from this boat. I would suggest you still take it semi-seriously, but when it comes down to the final offer, I would be very, very cheeky about it i.e don't be embarrassed by going in with a final offer way, way below the asking price; at least 50 - 60% below.
 
Some more thoughts.
- How old are the batteries?
- When was the propane pipe last replaced (check if it is copper or rubber)?
- Can you get aboard the boat, from the water, without using your dinghy? ie is there a swimming platform at the stern or can you pull the boarding ladder down if you were in the drink?
- How accessible is the motor's impeller?
- How difficult is it to tighten/change a fan belt (older designs are near impossible)?
- When it comes to putting in a reef, can you do it from the cockpit or do you have to go fwd to the mast? If so, does the boat have "granny bars"?
- Could you anchor/retrieve the anchor single-handed? ie a remote control for the windlass so that you can stay by the wheel.
 
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